outerlimits Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 you'll like this-just got the word from the 3 gun nats range master-they plan on chronoing all three guns! hahahahaha...what a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3GunF1Guy Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 I could see cronoing the rifle and the pistol. But the shotgun? I do it all the time..But, Just wait untill some joker has Fiocchi Spreaders and try to crono those. There will be some pellet holes somewhere the crono guy does not want. Why bother cronoing slugs. A 1oz slug (437.5gr) at a measly 1200 fps is a 525 power factor. almost all slugs are going faster than that. Federal- 1625fps, Fiocchi- 1600fps, even the low recoil are around 1300-1400fps. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 (edited) I think rifle and pistol chrono are OK and probably expected by most shooters and there is a large body of precedent at previous US3G's. To do it with shotgun without a way long in advance announcement is not OK and stinks to high heaven. Shotgun function and load choice are a fine tuning point and asking folks to look at their equations and possibly change them with little to no notice is a bad move. If shotgun chronoing happens at the US3G with this short of notice I am going to have to reconsider attending if I have to test my system and modify it at the last minute. Sorry for the vehemence here, but this is way wrong if this is the way it is being handled. I have found no notification of this policy in any of the match literature and if it isn't there, then it should not be done with short notice. -- Regards, Edited September 21, 2005 by George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 you'll like this-just got the word from the 3 gun nats range master-they plan on chronoing all three guns! hahahahaha...what a waste of time. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> would they chrono slugs and birdshot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted September 20, 2005 Author Share Posted September 20, 2005 i think it's be interesting. for rifle, the guys with the 16" barrels need to be concerned. like many, i buy my rifle ammo and haven't a clue what those expensive NBT's run. the short range .223 i load is pretty light, but out of a 20" they are fine. shotgun, again, other that what the box might say, have no clue. george points out a good one-my spreaders might make it a short day at the chrono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 The problem I see with Chronoing the shotgun is which load to you chose. At the Area 1 3-Gun I shot everything from 3 3/4 dram #4's, Rem Red. Recoil slugs, 3 1/4 dram 4, 7 1/2, 8, and a 1/2 dozen spreaders. Which SG ammo are you going to chrono? I think it's a bit different in that load choice is dependant upon stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 I'm going to hand him my 3"--1 1/8 oz. mag. slugs. That ought to wake him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3GunF1Guy Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 After checking the rules there is a power factor for shotgun of 520. I have cronoed many of my reloads and I can tell you that the numbers in fps printed on boxes and published in load data are all from a 30" barrel. The average loss per inch of barrel is about 7fps so if you have an 18" Bennelli you will loose about 84 fps from the published data. That means that with a 1 1/8oz 3dram (1200fps) it will be going about 1116fps, times that by 1 1/8oz (492.2gr) equals a 549.2 power factor. Most people should be O.K. Slug are another problem. After checking the speed of some low recoil slugs at my local gun shop I found they are anywhere from 1100fps to ? The Fiocchi low recoil is 1135fps with 84 fps subtracted for barrel length you get 1051fps times 1oz of slug you only get a 459.8 power factor. Just thought you would like to know. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 (edited) We all know that lite shot loads in some guns are just not going to make 520. Reduced recoil slugs aren't gonna make it for a lot of folks too. World IPSC does chrono SG, but this would be an absolute first over here and enforcing it without membership discussion and advance publication is so wrong, it isn't even funny. I have chronoed my setups and my shotshells run 490-510 PF (I think) and my slugs run just under 500 PF in my ported open SG. Yes, I could make a change but it will not be easy to do and why should I only find out about this 3 weeks out. Ridiculous!!! I am also unsure that my methods of chronoing shotshells are giving me correct results anyway. I built up my system up when the rules said any 12 gauge shell was major and I am not alone here. (edited for clarity and content) Edited September 21, 2005 by George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3GunF1Guy Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 I was under the impression that at any match you could get cronoed, including club matches without prior notification. Since the rules were posted far enough in advance for the match to happen and the rules were voted into effect by our elected leaders, doesn't that mean we have go go by the rules? Isn't the power factor a rule just like not having a ported pistol in limited? Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 (edited) Shotgun PF is a rule in World IPSC and we supposedly run shotgun under those rules, but and this is a big but, we have never, ever chronoed shotgun at any USPSA area, or larger event, ever and a suprise start is not the way to do it if you want your members to stick with you. Precedent means a lot and a nasty suprise like shooting for no score is not gonna make a lotta shooters real happy in the long run. Real Bad Move IMO. -- Regards, Edited September 21, 2005 by George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 Maybe I should bring my 30" unported barrel with a fixed mod choke and tools to move the holosight to it just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 (edited) My match ammo will be one box of high base Fiocchi 4's and one box of Remington Slugger's and they can have it all for the chrono ;-) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There's that option too. I think I'll bring both. I have some Winchester #6's 3 3/4 dram I bought by mistake, good thing I didn't throw them away. I also have some PMC #4 buck that's MAX dram and they are HOT loads. Buckshot is not allowed right, I'll get some carb cleaner and remove the print on the plastic and tell them it's 2 3/4 dram #8 Edited September 20, 2005 by TMC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 Buckshot is not allowed right, I'll get some carb cleaner and remove the print on the plastic Love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 The following email just went out to the MD and RM for the US3G: ***************************************** I am interested in finding out about chronograph procedures at the 2005 US3G. I have heard that the 520 PF floor will be enforced for the first time on shotguns and that all shotgun ammo will get chronoed along with rifle and pistol. Is this true? If it is true, I am wondering where and when this announcement will be officially made and for how long has this been planned. I have found no information available to the competitors on this anywhere. I have no issues with rifle and pistol PF’s being tested as there is plenty of precedent for this being done at previous US3G’s and most shooters are expecting the metallic cartridges to be tested. I am very concerned about it being applied to shotgun this year as the rumor mill is saying it will be. Thanks in advance for your reply to this. -- Geoffrey Linder TY11141 *********************************** I will share the replies when I get them. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 I'm not sure that the fact that you've been knowingly shooting minor shotgun and declaring major is a real good arguing point. It seems to me like this is the perfect reason for them to test SG ammo. I've never chrono'd mine. I think it will make major. But knowing that your ammo is below the floor and still calling it Major? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 (edited) OK Folks, I got a response from Carl Schmidt about the shotgun chrono issue. =============================== -----Original Message----- From: Geoffrey Linder Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 Subject: RE: Chrono Issues at the 2005 US3G Hi Carl, I am interested in finding out about chronograph procedures at the 2005 US3G. I have heard that a 520 PF floor will be imposed for the first time on shotguns and that all shotgun ammo will get chronoed along with rifle and pistol. Is this true? If it is true, I am wondering where and when this announcement will be officially made and for how long has this been planned. I have found no information available to the competitors on this anywhere. I have no issues with rifle and pistol PF’s being tested as there is plenty of precedent for this being done at previous US3G’s and most shooters are expecting the metallic cartridges to be tested. I am very concerned about it being applied to shotgun this year as the rumor mill is saying it will be. Thanks in advance for your reply to this. -- Geoffrey Linder TY11141 -----Carls Response----- Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:03:47 -0700 To: 'Geoffrey Linder' Subject: RE: Chrono Issues at the 2005 US3G Hi Geoffrey, The decision to chronograph all guns was made when the MD and myself starting talking early in the year. No announcement was made regarding any chronograph procedures because they are in the USPSA rulebooks. This match is a level 3 and ALL the rulebooks require we chronograph at this level. We are not requiring the competitors to do anything they shouldn't be doing now. Competitors will also be chronoed randomly. I did ask Butch to get the word because I was getting some concerns from some people. You do have chance to get this changed however. On October 1st the USPSA board will be meeting in Vegas. It will be brought up on the agenda whether to lower the shotgun power factor to 480, which is the new IPSC power factor, or to keep it as is for the upcoming match. So get all your buddies to contact their area directors or the President and let them know how you feel. Personally I hope they lower the power factor, it would solve this problem. But in the meantime as the RM it's my obligation to enforce the present rules adopted by the board. Hope this helps. If I can answer any more questions, shoot 'em to me. Carl ========================================= I will try and raise awarness of this issue for the Oct 1 meeting, but I am basically very dismayed that we would be treated so shabbily by the folks we put in charge of our matches. Edited September 21, 2005 by George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 (edited) ok, so how many grains in an ounce and 1/8? Edited September 21, 2005 by TMC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted September 21, 2005 Author Share Posted September 21, 2005 carl basically re-stated to me that slugs were mainly the issue. this is the way i plan on dealing with it in vegas. since they seem to imply they will randomly check SG ammo, i will ONLY provide serious Sluggers and hi-base 6's for testing-nothing else. if they want one of my tubes, i will only fill them with ni-base...period. and i still thing some 16" AR users are in for a surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 I get 492.17 from my unit converter program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 492.1875 using good ol' math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 The principle of the thing is what bugs me and even though I joked earlier about having special chrono loads, thats just not right. Making any of us think of resorting to subterfuge is the wrong thing to let happen. The rules are fine, it's the surprise enforcement without any precedent at all that is not. Tell everyone now, that next year we will follow the rulebook on this one. That's OK. This is not! I also know that less than 30% of competitors will probably be at risk of shooting for no score. I also know that I am one of them. But the real issue here is it being dropped out of the blue on us. The cavalier attitude of "it's in the rules, so we don't have to announce it" makes my hackles raise to the point of no return. Am I the only one that feels this is an outrageous thing to do under this time frame and that it is being done to us in a very odd manner? -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 From the 2004 Shotgun Rules, page 66 For Birdshot Stages Birdshot – no. 7 or 7 ½ or local equivalent. Power factor – 520 or less (e.g. A cartridge of 28gr (1 ounce) shot weight at 1180 fps) For Buckshot Stages Buckshot – OO or SG or local equivalent (factory ammunition at the Range Master’s discretion) For Slug Stages Factory ammunition at the Range Master’s discretion So.. it's up to ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 Correct me if I am wrong, but do we not use the World IPSC 2004 Shotgun Rules now. See pages 12 & 49-54 for Ammo and PF info: 2004_shotgun.pdf -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 That's pretty vague!? I understand the rules but shotguns are a different animal. Most guys I know don't reload for shotgun, we just buy what's cheap, runs and takes down the steel. I'm with Geeff about picking a factory load that's readily available and tuning the gun to runs it. Now we've got to change thing. I wonder what MV shoots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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