2005 US3G Shotgun Chronoing

[outerlimits]

still comes down to this fixation called power factor. now, here's a dose of reality. shoot me with a major 38 supercomp before you shoot me with a 68 gr .223, and definitely do both of those before you shoot me with a 12 guage slug...i don't care if it's low recoil or not. i remember the first time i saw a slug in action-was about 18 years ago. some guys at the range shot a piece of railroad tie with one at about 25 yds-not safe but the tie went flying sownrange. so in my book, that 1 oz slug is major-all the time.

[D.Hayden]

Maybe a mod could split this to a new thread

Geoff... sorry - am I looking at the wrong book?

I thought we followed IPSC unless there's a clear difference?

Won't we be under:

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2004ShotgunRulesFinal.pdf

for this match?

Edited September 21, 2005 by BerKim

[George]

You are right on the clear difference thing there Dave (I just looked it up).

This is a clear difference that is not so clear ;-)

BTW Dave, I think this is all still in line with the general thread tack (I am not only a moderator, but I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last year).

BTW, BTW, Butch makes a very good point about the PF's we assign not really being a good indicator of anything at all other that what the rule says ;-)

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Regards,

[Chuck Anderson]

From the 2004 Shotgun Rules, page 66

For Birdshot Stages

Birdshot – no. 7 or 7 ½ or local equivalent.

Power factor – 520 or less

(e.g. A cartridge of 28gr (1 ounce) shot weight at 1180 fps)

For Buckshot Stages

Buckshot – OO or SG or local equivalent (factory ammunition at the Range

Master’s discretion)

For Slug Stages

Factory ammunition at the Range Master’s discretion

So.. it's up to ??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the specification for calibration. So it would be like specifying a 9mm for a pistol calibration.

I'm not entirely sure what the problem is. There are power factor rules that have been in the rulebook since at least 2004, and I would bet longer. If the match wants to chrono to make sure that people are following the rules, let them. If you're not following the rules, why should you get a freebie shooting light loads. Looking at the rules it says that a level III requires chronograph testing. Carl is following the rulebook. If you're not making power you don't play. People who go to a pistol nationals with 120 power factor pistol ammo should know that they going to be playing for fun. I think that villifying Carl for enforcing the rules is certainly not the way to handle this.

I would like to see the power floor dropped to 480. Hopefully a meaningful dialogue will help this. Insults I doubt will.

[SVI4ME]

BUT BUT BUT

How many times have you seen the word "chrono" in the match booklet and it just sat there and was never used.

Scare tactic !! Maybe but like the Boy Scouts say "Be prepared"

[TMC]

What confuses me is the 520pf or less? Am I just not thinking tonight or shouldn't it be 520 or more?

[Chuck Anderson]

So? Not shooting power factor is cheating. Just because someone has gotten away with it doesn't make it right.

[diehli]

What confuses me is the 520pf or less?  Am I just not thinking tonight or shouldn't it be 520 or more?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's for calibration.

[gunny]

Perhaps, I am the lone dissenter. I will be very disappointed if they do not follow the 520PF rule. This is my first USPSA 3GUN match, although I've shot numerous IMGA matches.

I researched the rules and purchased ammo specifically to meet the 520PF.

Now, where is the greater malfeasance, not following known posted rules three week out from the match, or The BOD reruling in favor of the 480 PF?

For the competitors that have been using known weenie loads in prior matches W/O chrono, isn't that an admission of cheating...hmmm...?

[3GunF1Guy]

+1 to gunny's response.

I would like to see it stay 520. If you buy crap wal-mart ammo you may have a problem. I shoot a browning gold and would love to see the heavy rounds in everyone else's gun. I say the more the gun moves the better shot you need to be to shoot it well.

[D.Hayden]

I'll just say, I never even thought about it.

The rifle, hell yes, I make sure I'm shooting my reloads right over 170PF (3125fps with my whimpy 16"), and my pistol reloads too.. I don't load shotgun ammo for 3 gun, I buy it.. I just figured it makes it.

Federal (cheap WalMart) 1 1/8 (492) @ 1200 FPS = 590PF (according to the box, I figure that's close enough, it'll make the 520)

Winchester Ranger Slugs - 437.5gr @ 1200 fps (again, box) = 525PF - cutting it close.

At Area 1 last weekend, the Rangers and the Remington Low Recoil seemed to be very popular.

So, I'm only worried about the slugs - and that's my mistake -

I have a bunch of Wolf: 612PF - Ouch, no wonder I stopped shooting those..

Recommendations? Any medum power slugs out there?

Edited September 21, 2005 by BerKim

[Religious Shooter]

In the 2004 3G Nationals in Reno they didn't chrono. Is the chrono requirement a new rule?

I'm sorta mixed to the whole chrono thing. I've been to only three "major" 3G USPSA matches (A1, A2 and Nationals) and none of the matches had a chrono stage.

Frankly I think a # of people will fail the shotgun portion. I think it's an unfair advantage in that we know they will be chronoing the shotgun. It will be suck city for those who aren't forewarned and fail.

I'm with George in that they should have announced it well in advance that they are going to do this.

[JakeMartens]

George,

It is a rule, they can chrono at any sanctioned match, any of the firearms....the fact that you have tuned your gun to run on ammo below the stated rule of the power factor and have gotten away with it, doesn't make it not right, it makes what you have been doing not right.

And folks that are going to give them special chrono loads is cheating plain and simple....

Not following the rules and then getting called on it is cheating, you just happened to admit to it....

Edited September 21, 2005 by fortyfiveshooter

[P.E. Kelley]

Thank you, Gunny and Lawman for your words of wisdom.

We as players of a game have become lax in our adherence to our rule book. It is incumbent upon US to know and follow the rules (USPSA , IMG, etc.) not to see what we can get away and place the burden of keeping us within the rules on our volunteer range officials. The only precedence set is our collective failure to police ourselves.

It has been mentioned on BE and written about in Front Sight that 520 is the shotgun power factor.

It makes no difference, rifle, pistol or shotgun, shooting minor loads and requesting major scoring is a disservice to the competitor who knows and complies with the rules.

This is NOT directed at anyone it is for everyone.

PK

[George]

My gun was setup prior to USPSA establishing a PF for shotgun. At that time any 12 gauge shell was flat out major and this issue was not an issue. I thought about it briefly a couple years back when the IPSC rules were adapted, but the general consensus was that it would never get applied. Earlier this year I checked my stuff and found it would make the 480 rule that World IPSC was looking at adopting so I figured it was a non-issue real soon now and promptly forgot it, after all, don't we follow World IPSC on this stuff?

BTW, my shot load might make 520 by a rats ass, but I am not sure whether my shotshell chrono data will resemble what happens there. The slugs I use probably won't and I have a lot of them also. Not the match RM's fault that I have ammo stock, but he is to blame if my match money is now wasted for this years US3G.

I am not intentionally cheating on anything. I set up a load that is based on a standard off the shelf 3 Dram, 1.125 OZ commercial shotshell that doesn't cost $65/case like the premium 3.25 Dram WW 7.5's do, when I can even find them anywhere within driving distance from where I am.

520 is a ridculous requirement on short notice when everyone knows that 3 Dram equivalent loads are pretty goldarned prevalent and they were legal when they and the they guns that are set up for them were adopted.

(Edited for content clarity by me)

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Regards,

Edited September 21, 2005 by George

[Religious Shooter]

Heck I didn't even know there was such a rule in effect. My pistol and rifle rounds are good to go. But shotgun?

What the heck happened to the 16+ gauge = major rule?

Chronoing shotguns strikes me as lame, time-consuming (I use four different shells... a spreader, heavy bird, regular bird and slugs. You gonna chrono 2-4 shotgun shells per competitor?) and hard on chronoing equipment.

Are they gonna pull or disassemble the shells and weigh the payload? Do they count the wad(s) in determining the weight?

[Brian Payne]

Rules are made for a reason. To keep people honest and make the playing field level for all competitors. (not meaning to imply anyone is less than honest, just speaking of rules in general).

I like the idea of 520 power factor and I will make sure I have ammo. that will qualify. If you want to shoot this competition you have three weeks to find loads of the proper power factor that work in your gun.

I bet if they reduced power factors, it wouldn't take three weeks to find a loads that worked, yet still made the lower power factor.

Getting three weeks advanced notice is a nice gesture if you ask me.

[Neil Beverley]

My gun was setup prior to USPSA establishing a PF for shotgun. At that time any 12 gauge shell was flat out major and this issue was not an issue. I thought about it briefly a couple years back when the IPSC rules were adapted, but the general consensus was that it would never get applied. Last year I checked my stuff and found it would make the 480 rule that World IPSC was looking at adopting so I figured it was a non-issue real soon now and promptly forgot it, after all, don't we follow World IPSC on this stuff?

BTW, my shot load will probably make 520 by a rats ass, but the slugs I use won't and I have a lot of them. Not their fault, but they are to blame if my money is now wasted for this years match. And that's a fact, jack!

520 my a$$!!!

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Regards,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

George

A PF of 480 was not under discussion within IPSC last year. Indeed the only conversations about this occurred during May/June this year.

Over the past 2 years I have posted reminders about the 520 PF here on the BE forums on more than one occasion, lest anyone should accidentally fall foul of the relevant rules.

Edited September 21, 2005 by Neil Beverley

[Religious Shooter]

Getting three weeks advanced notice is a nice gesture if you ask me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yah... for the people that got the warning. I'm sure that a good number of shooters won't get the word.

I think a "fair" warning takes more than three weeks.

But oh well.

[George]

I will not cheat to get around the chrono, but I sure can deny the US3G my money and support if they insist on slapping me with the rulebook just because they can now! Announce the need for compliance in the MATCH APPLICATION and on the USPSA WEBSITE and IN ADVANCE, or give it up as the bad job it truly is.

The process is what stinks here. The rule is fine, just let me know when you are going to "suddenly" apply it as though you had been all along.

(Edited for clarity and content)

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Regards,

Edited September 21, 2005 by George

[Brian Payne]

The warning has apparently been in the rule book for quite some time.

I'm lucky. I am new to all of this so if the rule book says power factor is 520, then my ammo. will make 520. I will assume everyone else will play by the same rule.

[Neil Beverley]

The current chrono procedure is completely based on the HG chrono procedure. Rounds are selected at random solely at the choice of the RO, usually from the ammo a competitor uses on a stage.

Wads are excluded from the weight and therefore only the weight of the shot or slug counts. There has been a change for the 2006 IPSC rules in that wads, if fixed to the backs of slugs and are designed to travel to the target, will be counted in the weight.

Ammo to be tested is of the same type e.g. birdshot or slug but not mixed. The rules provide for repeated testing and for testing different types of competitor ammo at any time at the discretion of match officials.

One of the main reasons for establishing a minimum PF is to make sure that targets will fall at set PF levels. To expand on this - it places a responsibility on course designers to not set targets at some distance from the shooter that will only fall if shot with heavy loads. A stated and known PF sets the criteria. Can you imagine the cries of foul if someone set a stage based on being only achievable with rounds at say 600 PF and from a gun with a turkey choke?

If we dumb down the PF too far then we would not be able to properly test the scope of a shotgun.

Please be warned that from my research I have found that birdshot can drop around 80-90 fps from the muzzle velocity to the 3ft velocity. The difference for slugs is minimal. Please check the measuring point from manufacturer to manufacturer.

There has been an extensive discussion about power factors generally for shotgun on the IPSC Global Village. CLICK HERE

Edited September 21, 2005 by Neil Beverley

[Neil Beverley]

To offer some further info on the subject of shotgun PF results you will find some interesting data in the latter posts of THIS THREAD. The results discuss the significance of chokes in relation to chrono results.

[mike.45]

George,

Throughout the IPSC shotgun world, we have always used the 520 PF for shotguns and this has always been accepted. In the European Championships in 2003 everyone was chronoed (there was a bit of controversy when the match ammo didnt meet PF for one competitor ) but PF in IPSC shotgun is accepted practice - I think USPSA shotgun 'only' comps in the US are only really starting to take off or be thought about, but I am sure if you guys had been shooting them for years like the rest of the world then this PF thing would not be such a big deal, like with pistol and rifle.

You are right, IPSC shooting and multigun shooting are not the same thing at all and I think I am right in thinking that multigun is not the direction IPSC is heading at all. Neil B or Vince may be able to enlighten us about this.

[George]

I am going to recheck all my data this week and see if I am actually under the required PF for sure. I do not wish to intentionally cheat and have never considered the PF of the 3 dram shotshell I shoot to be an issue.

I only checked my PF earlier this year after reading some older articles on this at the 2003, or 2004 shoot in Italy. I am not even sure the results I got were accurate because I lobbed a couple downrange and then so did a friend with a Benelli and I only kinda remember the quick calc I made, it was not a controlled test at all and I don't have any written data to back up what I kinda remember.

I do not wish to shoot for no score, nor do I wish to not be in compliance of a rule that is applied to everyone evenly (random chronoing is not evenly). I would rather not shoot than intentionally excercise subterfuge to avoid demotion to no score.

I also may not be able to change my setup and ammo stock in time without undue expense and hassle and that alone will probably preclude participation for me even if other factors weren't in play here in my decision process. I just bought mucho grande of the shotshell and the slugs I use ($400+ bucks worth) and I am understandably mad about that here. Please don't tell me that it's my fault that I bought Federal brand Tactical Slugs and high quality commercial shotshells that have a high V rating by the mfgr (what's wuss about a 3 dram 1.125 oz shell?).

This irks me because I know the stuff I shoot is probably going downrange at close to 1200 fps in unported/non-vented bbls, but not quite in mine. Now I hafta go get this all sorted out again and actually start making measurements here. PITA It's a 12 gauge shotgun and it knocks down heavy steel reliably, whats weak about that?

(note to self to ask VinceS how to accurately chrono shotshells)

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Regards,

Edited September 21, 2005 by George