2005 US3G Shotgun Chronoing

[3GunF1Guy]

George, You should be O.K. on the birdshot. Here are my calculations:

With a 1 1/8oz 3dram (1200fps) shotshell it will be going about 1116fps out of an 18" barrel, times that by 1 1/8oz (492.2gr) equals a 549.2 power factor.

Here is how I crono shotshells, I use a CED and set it up just like I would for pistol, Sky-screens and all. Set it about 3-6 feet in front of the barrel of the shotgun about the same distance you would for pistol. You will probably have to move it front to bake to find the proper place for your shotgun. Don't shoot too low because the shot is spreading but at 6' it is only about 4" in diameter. You need to look at the crono after each round because it will measure the speed of the wad sometimes. I have shot many shells over the crono and I have only gotten a couple of pellet holes in the uprights of the sky-screen. If you get a really wacky reading it is usually the wad being measured.

Good Luck

Scott

[sargenv]

George, You should be O.K. on the birdshot. Here are my calculations:

With a 1 1/8oz 3dram (1200fps) shotshell it will be going about 1116fps out of an 18" barrel, times that by 1 1/8oz (492.2gr) equals a 549.2 power factor.

Here is how I crono shotshells, I use a CED and set it up just like I would for pistol, Sky-screens and all. Set it about 3-6 feet in front of the barrel of the shotgun about the same distance you would for pistol. You will probably have to move it front to bake to find the proper place for your shotgun. Don't shoot too low because the shot is spreading but at 6' it is only about 4" in diameter. You need to look at the crono after each round because it will measure the speed of the wad sometimes. I have shot many shells over the crono and I have only gotten a couple of pellet holes in the uprights of the sky-screen. If you get a really wacky reading it is usually the wad being measured.

Good Luck

Scott

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

+1 to Scott... Um, this is pretty much what I do with my Pact.. though I've never hit my skyscreens with anything.. I did have a friend chrono'ing arrows nail the second skyscreen once. Snapped it off the base A little epoxy and it was good as new..

Vince

[George]

My concern is based on the fact that when I did lob a few over the skyscreens a while back, the shot was getting along at about 1020 - 1040 fps and the slugs were doing 1075ish. I got very erratic results and wasn't sure if the reading were correct anyway. These speeds don't inspire confidence in me as the results were gotten with the sensors fairly close and the reading were all over the place with only two being close and those were the ones I assumed were on target (pun intended).

I am going to gut a slug and shotshell tonight and weight the payload so when I get some velocities later in the week, I will have my answer. Suffice to say that I won't be very happy if I have to walk away from a huge inventory of ammo I have and replace the barrel on my 11-87 to reduce the size of the way, way hogged out gas ports to where stouter stuff won't beat the action senseless with excess bolt speed.

As I said earlier, this is nowhere near as simple as just going out and buying some new slugs and shot. The tuning that went into making the system work as it does did not happen over a couple weeks, it took more like a couple months of tweaking and testing and tweaking and testing ;-(

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Regards,

[3GunF1Guy]

My concern is based on the fact that when I did lob a few over the skyscreens a while back, the shot was getting along at about 1020 - 1040 fps and the slugs were doing 1075ish. I got very erratic results and wasn't sure if the reading were correct anyway. These speeds don't inspire confidence in me as the results were gotten with the sensors fairly close and the reading were all over the place with only two being close and those were the ones I assumed were on target (pun intended).

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Regards,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To me those reading look like the wads. That is about what a wad is doing 3' from the muzzle, depending on the choke of your gun. Remember a choke is really a wad slowing device on the end of your gun. If you are shooting a 3 dram (1200 fps) 1 1/8 oz load it should be going faster than that. Sometimes it is a trick to get the crono to "see" the lead edge of the shot string.

Scott

[TMC]

From the above discussion could I assume that my 1 1/8oz, #7.5 3 1/4 dram stuff should be safe? The box says 1255fps and I shoot a 26" with the JP comp and porting.

[benny hill]

Here's the bottom line. Myself, all the top shooters & our presdent all shoot 1 oz. low recoil slugs. If ours don't make it & a select few do, we have a major problem.

[TMC]

Here's the bottom line. Myself, all the top shooters & our presdent all shoot 1 oz. low recoil slugs. If ours don't make it & a select few do, we have a major problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That would be a sight to see!

[George]

To me those reading look like the wads

Thats why I am going to go out later this week and do this up right. I was getting some 9sumtin readings too and some high 1100's. At the time I chalked it up to a vague leading edge on the shot column and figured the middle of the road reading would be the ones (mid 10's). Maybe the 1100 sumtin readings were the real poop and I am over 520 with the shot. Hmmm!

Thanks for the info Scott.

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Regards,

Edited September 25, 2005 by George

[TMC]

Here's the bottom line. Myself, all the top shooters & our presdent all shoot 1 oz. low recoil slugs. If ours don't make it & a select few do, we have a major problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"major" problem, it works on many levels, I just got that!

Edited September 21, 2005 by TMC

[Airedale]

Here's the bottom line. Myself, all the top shooters & our presdent all shoot 1 oz. low recoil slugs. If ours don't make it & a select few do, we have a major problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is an interesting thread. I intended to read only until this comment.

Someone please explain why if the top shooters and the president don't make power factor there would be a major problem. Are they somehow different from the "little dogs"?

I read the thread this afternoon and my interpretation was some folks were PO'd because they were knowingly shooting under PF and about to (possibly) get caught.

I check it this evening and see the above quote from a man well respected in the USPSA field.

Interesting thread. My question is not to ruffle feathers-I think it's a valid one.

Dave

[George]

I read the thread this afternoon and my interpretation was some folks were PO'd because they were knowingly shooting under PF and about to (possibly) get caught.

I don't "know" that I am under PF. It is possible that my shot is up above by a good margin. I just don't know because at the time I set the gun up (over 3 years ago), I picked a commercial 1200 fps 3 dram load and made the gun work with it. The testing I did was suspect and I will be re-testing in a couple days. That combo may actually make 520. The slugs I use are exactly the same ones about 75% (or more) of the folks I know who shoot 3 gun use. I am pretty sure that the use of 1 oz lo recoil slugs from the big 3 is at the same percentage pretty much everywhere. The 1 oz slugs are the biggest point here, not the shot.

I am PO'd because we are ALL being bagged' here. Even if your ammo is 3" magnum goose loads, you are not getting the benefit of the doubt applied evenly and fairly across the board because the chronoing isn't even global.

The manner of the announcement and it's timing are everything here. The rule itself is fine, it's the manner of it's implementation here that is wrong. The MD and RM didn't announce it hoping to bag a bunch of "us" big time at the match (I am using the term "bag" here in place of a slightly longer term). They started getting hinky about who they might bag and decided to let the cat out of the bag at the last second to absolve themselves of the storm that would arise in Vegas if it wasn't general knowledge up front. And anyone wonders why I am PO'd.

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Regards,

Edited September 22, 2005 by George

[Airedale]

George,

Thanks,

Dave

[diehli]

BTW, had this announcement been in the match application, or on the website, or even leaked the same way it was yesterday at the time it was decided upon which was 6 months ago, I would have never stepped up on a soapbox and started squawking. I am hearing this 3 weeks out and it means that the tune up match I just got back from and all the prep I have in place is moot for my shotgun. Now I have a new round of stuff to sort out which may wind up being a real PITA to deal with on short notice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey George, at least you didn't have to deal with the debacle known as the World Shoot.

[Paule]

Low recoil slugs, even from the "big three", are not the same. The published velocities vary from 1200-1300 fps form test barrels (read 30"). I have not chrono'ed my Federal slugs yet, but if they lose as much percentage-wise as my birdshot loads do, from published fps, I will still be okay. With Remmy's, not so lucky.

Of all the bird shot I have chrono'ed, all the 1-1/8 oz loads make PF, some 1 oz. do, many don't. I know that my rifle and pistol loads run a little faster when I go to Vegas. Higher altitiude and less humidity, so maybe marginal slugs here will be fine in the desert. Maybe not though.

I am planning to take a good Sharpie though. Those shiny bulliotts don't always register very well in bright sun and I have never seen too many clouds in Sin City.

[George]

I am planning to take a good Sharpie though

Paul, does blacking a bullet really help it read more reliably over a skyscreen?

[Paule]

Blacking helps eliminate the glint off copper and gold bullets in some light conditions. The reflections seem to give false readings on sunny days and marking the bullets eliminates it for the most part. I regularly shoot rifles with two chronos, one at the muzzle and one at the target. Makes it hard to get the screens aligned perfectly to shade the direct sun. Never tried the white plastic bag trick (I will now), but marking the bullets really helps when I have to dual-chrono rounds.

When I first started shooting some MT-Gold bullets I had fits with extreme spreads that were way too big. Turns out it was false readings from reflections off the bullets. Blacked 'em and ES went down under 25 FPS.

Puttling a chrono in a box with a consistent light source is a great idea for indoor or fixed location setup. wish I could, but I have to stabilize mine with cords to keep them up in the wind as it is. Not sure I could keep boxes still long enough to fire a shot. Would be nice at the Nationals though!

[D.Hayden]

Anybody chrono through a Remmy 1100CM for slugs and have data you'll share?

It's the only thing that's close to not making it, I'd like to have my normal % above the PF level, and wtih the 21" barrel....

I'd rather not shoot the Wolfs, if the Rangers will make it.

Edited September 22, 2005 by BerKim

[gunny]

Here is chrono results from yesterday PM;

All Velocity reading from a recently New Pact chrono 6' from muzzle to first transducer.

Remington 1100 12 gauge 23" bbl Modified choke Remington Law enforcemant reduced recoil. 1 oz. Slug Remington RR12-RS Fired 10 slugs Avg. Velocity 1177 FPS PF=514937

Winchester Practical Mark 1 22" barrel Modified choke 10 slugs Averge velocity 1187 PF=519312.

Gunny

[outerlimits]

Here is chrono results from yesterday PM;

All Velocity reading from a recently New Pact chrono 6' from muzzle to first transducer.

Remington 1100 12 gauge 23" bbl Modified choke Remington Law enforcemant reduced recoil. 1 oz. Slug Remington RR12-RS Fired 10 slugs Avg. Velocity 1177 FPS PF=514937

Winchester Practical Mark 1 22" barrel Modified choke 10 slugs Averge velocity 1187 PF=519312.

Gunny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so much for 520. i'm gonna chrono reduced recoil rems outta my 21" deer barrel and check it too. will report back sunday. i ain't even gonna bother with fiocchi's.

[BillL223]

I think this discussion is missing the point. I'm not shooting this years 3-Gun Nationals but have shot three of them. There is usually only one stage where you shoot slugs. Most posters are believeing that their "low recoil" slug may not make PF. They are probably right. When I tested Federal Tactical in my 18" Benelli they ran about 1200 pfs and were just on the line. Usually there is one shot per paper target. Would shooting full power slugs be such a hugh deal? I handload Lyman 525 slugs @ 1250. This is an option, I realize time is getting short.

[George]

Well yes, in some cases it will be an issue to use full power ammo in a gas operated gun that has had the gas system hogged out to operate 100% with reduced loads. The beating the action would take frome even a few rounds could batter some parts senseless.

This wouldn't be an issue for stock recoil operated guns like the Benelli's and gas breathers that are still setup the way they come from the factory.

But yes, there is an issue to be concerned about there for some folk.

I really wish there was a dram equivalent range of slugs available like there is with shot instead of the lightswitch choice of reduced and full power only.

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Regards,

[Still Praying]

Someone tell me if I am wrong. It seems to me I read that they would use the new rules that would be final in July (I think) and I had already seen somewhere that the PF was and would be 520. So someone didn't see the wrighting on the wall or in BE, and got caught with their paints down. Sorry this happened, I truly am, but I think instead of whinning about it we need to concentrate on fixing the problem. I don't like the idea of 520 either 480 sounds about right. I don't like the idea of slaping Remington in the face. As far as I know they are the only low recoil slugs available made in the US. At least the only one I know of. I'm sure some of you guys know of other choices, but I don't. If they came up with this round for the shooting sports then I think we need to make sure we can use them. You know, Feed the big dog that watches over you and not bite the hand that feeds you.

So if this is our sport then lets take controll of it and use all of this energy in the right way and tell our Section Coordinators and President where to put the 520 PF and put in the 480. I to have checked my factory loads and found some of them tobe substandard. In fact I checked them today and will check them agian. I didn't think the wad would make that big of a deference, but I guess it dose.

I'm not trying to get on anyones case here, I just think this thread could be used in a more productive manner.

Ronnie

[3GunF1Guy]

Fiocchi has a low recoil slug that is made in the USA. In Missouri I think. (although I am pretty sure the are using imported components. Like Hondas made in Ohio) I shoot the full power Fiocchi slugs because I like how flat they shoot and will run the gun. I have seen sooo many low recoil slugs that FTF out of some guns it is not even funny. It does take some tuning to get a low recoil slug to run.

As far as lowering the power factor my vote is not to. Leave it at 520 or move it to 550 and make it major power factor. USPSA does live by DVC. If you want to shoot low recoil stuff then lets make 480 or 450 minor power factor for shotgun. About whatever a 20ga is with standard buckshot and slugs. This would not be hard to do with the new scoring system. Most things shot with buckshot are 5 point steel anyway. Calibrate the steel at minor power factor and then the people who want to shoot major can engage steel from farther back and sooner on a stage that requires movement and the minor shooter have got to get closer to make it fall. With slugs on paper the low recoil has more drop at 100 yds with the full power shooting a little flatter this MAY be an advantage to the "major" slug shooter. This proposal would make a lot of sense. And the scoring is just as easy as the minor, major rifle that we will be using in vegas.

Scott

[Still Praying]

For the record I don't work for Remington or anything like that. I hate to sound repetitive, but I don't want to see them holding the bag on this one.

Ronnie

[George]

I'm not trying to get on anyones case here, I just think this thread could be used in a more productive manner.

You are right. I do think this thread is getting more productive now though. It is also very probable that this whole issue will be resolved because of lots of kvetching.

You can also bet that by this time next week, I know exactly what my shotgun ammo choices go downrange at ;-)

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Regards,