Bumps to Open - Magazine from Table

[Gary Stevens]

One of our senior RMI's made the initial call's. I confirmed it based on a violation of appendix E3.

 

Until told otherwise by DNROI, the rules allow Production, Single Stack, and Carry Optics to carry additional magazines behind the forward point of the hip bone per E3. This means mainly hip pockets, otherwise retention devices attached to the competitors belt and "specifically" designed for that purpose must be used. A holster does not meet this specification.

 

5.2.4.1 allows these shooters to also carry a load magazine or unload magazine in the front pocket as long as it is used for specific purposes.

 

5.2.4.2 allows for hand carry.

 

6.2.5.1 calls for a move to open dvision for violation of equipment rules.

 

FWIW, I asked three other RM's and two other RMI's who were at the match about the call. All the RM's agreed, and one RMI disagreed with his fellow RMI.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Gary Stevens

[nasty618]

 

Quote

This means mainly hip pockets

 

Quote

5.2.4.1 Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “if clear, hammer down and holster”. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start sign

 

Doesnt say anything about which apparel item it must be.  What if i place the mag in the pocket of my button up shirt?

 

[HoMiE]

Just now, nasty618 said:

 

 

 

Doesnt say anything about which apparel item it must be.  What if i place the mag in the pocket of my button up shirt?

 

Then it would be forward of your hip bones if those divisions have equipment requirements. 

[nasty618]

Correct, with all the forthcoming stipulations if removed.  Therefore,  incorrect call and Production dude did get screwed. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by nasty618

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

 

Open shooters get a pass (because they are "no" for D-12), if you carry a magazine anywhere but a pouch or your hand you're violating the gear rules, since single stack is a yes for D-12 you go to open.

 

or a pocket behind your hips,..... not sure why a holster is different than a pocket.

[HoMiE]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

or a pocket behind your hips,..... not sure why a holster is different than a pocket.

As long as it was behind the hips, I don’t see what the problem was. I have grabbed mags and stuck them in between my belt and body before. I think the mags must be in retention applies to when mags are in retention devices before the buzzer. Different situation if you have to have all mags on table and grab them after start. 

[StealthyBlagga]

If you consider your holster to be a fashion statement, can it be considered "apparel"? 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by StealthyBlagga

[NickBlasta]

4 hours ago, HoMiE said:

As long as it was behind the hips, I don’t see what the problem was. I have grabbed mags and stuck them in between my belt and body before. I think the mags must be in retention applies to when mags are in retention devices before the buzzer. Different situation if you have to have all mags on table and grab them after start. 

 

Because you are only authorized to use specific things to retain magazines, your pouches (or pockets) and your hand. A holster is neither, it would be the same as balancing the magazine on the brim of your hat or sticking it in your armpit. Where it is in relation to the hips isn't relevant in this instance

[HoMiE]

8 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

Because you are only authorized to use specific things to retain magazines, your pouches (or pockets) and your hand. A holster is neither, it would be the same as balancing the magazine on the brim of your hat or sticking it in your armpit. Where it is in relation to the hips isn't relevant in this instance

Since the OP had 2 scenarios were the divisions also have restrictions put in place by appendix E3, the location of storing comes into play. Again, the storing of magazines in retention devices is only applicable if starting from that position before buzzer. Say if I dropped a mag and picked it up and held in hand or out in pocket, I would still need to make sure it goes behind hips. Shouldn’t make a difference if the stage makes you start with all your mags on table or elsewhere. 

[NickBlasta]

3 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Since the OP had 2 scenarios were the divisions also have restrictions put in place by appendix E3, the location of storing comes into play. Again, the storing of magazines in retention devices is only applicable if starting from that position before buzzer. Say if I dropped a mag and picked it up and held in hand or out in pocket, I would still need to make sure it goes behind hips. Shouldn’t make a difference if the stage makes you start with all your mags on table or elsewhere. 

 

5.2.4 tells you what you can use to carry magazines. You can use your pouches /after the start signal/ (which means it's still relevant) if allowed by the WSB. So you can have a "mags staged on barrel" stage where one can stow magazines after the buzzer, meaning 5.2.4 is relevant. 5.2.4.1 lets you use pockets. 5.2.4.2 allows you to use your hand. So you have three places you can put a magazine and the holster is not one. This is unrelated to where the gear is placed, if you stuffed a magazine down the back of your shirt you would still go to open even though the magazine is at the small of your back.

[MikeBurgess]

This is one of those stupid (most likely) untended consequences that got "fixed" by making more rules that are even dumber for no reason. Yes per the rules the way they got written the bumps were correct, but I bet that nobody involved in writing them ever thought about these outcomes.

 

My $.02  the rules should dictate where your equipment can be at the start signal, after the start signal if you want to move mags to other places or pick them up and carry them in your socks who cares?  

 

[Gary Stevens]

3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

This is one of those stupid (most likely) untended consequences that got "fixed" by making more rules that are even dumber for no reason. Yes per the rules the way they got written the bumps were correct, but I bet that nobody involved in writing them ever thought about these outcomes.

 

My $.02  the rules should dictate where your equipment can be at the start signal, after the start signal if you want to move mags to other places or pick them up and carry them in your socks who cares?  

 

 

I totally agree and advocated for exactly that. It was not accepted though. To me it is part of freestyle.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Gary Stevens

[pjb45]

What physically not operational defines a holster?

 

Material plastic, leather, etc., that encases an object?

 

Hmmmm.  

[pjb45]

On 9/8/2019 at 3:49 PM, Sarge said:

Not enforcing rules locally is one of the biggest failures in the sport. When a shooter goes to a major he is in for a rude awakening if we let things slide locally

Mistakenly inserted. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by pjb45

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

 

Because you are only authorized to use specific things to retain magazines, your pouches (or pockets) and your hand. A holster is neither, it would be the same as balancing the magazine on the brim of your hat or sticking it in your armpit. Where it is in relation to the hips isn't relevant in this instance

are you really only allowed to use specific things? If so, then why is using your mouth only specifically prohibited for divisions with position restrictions (without being specifically allowed for anyone else)? 

[motosapiens]

53 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

This is one of those stupid (most likely) untended consequences that got "fixed" by making more rules that are even dumber for no reason. Yes per the rules the way they got written the bumps were correct, but I bet that nobody involved in writing them ever thought about these outcomes.

 

 

and this imho is the problem with overly literal rules enforcers who are always trying to screw over shooters, and overly literal shooters who are trying to get away with stupid stuff like standing on the base of a wall on the wrong side of the shooting area. We end up writing 2 pages of lawyer-ese because we can't trust people to make a fairly obvious determination of what the rule is *supposed* to do. The good news is that it at least gives us something argue about on the internet instead of doing yardwork, or dryfiring.....

[HoMiE]

3 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

 

5.2.4 tells you what you can use to carry magazines. You can use your pouches /after the start signal/ (which means it's still relevant) if allowed by the WSB. So you can have a "mags staged on barrel" stage where one can stow magazines after the buzzer, meaning 5.2.4 is relevant. 5.2.4.1 lets you use pockets. 5.2.4.2 allows you to use your hand. So you have three places you can put a magazine and the holster is not one. This is unrelated to where the gear is placed, if you stuffed a magazine down the back of your shirt you would still go to open even though the magazine is at the small of your back.

This is the difference letter of law vs spirit of law. People have become so ingrained in Production that you can’t do something unless it says you can do it that they take every situation literal. That’s how we got another rule that says you can take a Barney mag from front pocket, you can’t do that after the buzzer however. I’ve had someone try to bump me to open for doing that in the past as well. 

[WaJim]

StealthyBlagga needs banned for posting that awful pic....

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by WaJim

[Southpaw]

11 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

One of our senior RMI's made the initial call's. I confirmed it based on a violation of appendix E3.

 

Until told otherwise by DNROI, the rules allow Production, Single Stack, and Carry Optics to carry additional magazines behind the forward point of the hip bone per E3. This means mainly hip pockets, otherwise retention devices attached to the competitors belt and "specifically" designed for that purpose must be used. A holster does not meet this specification.

 

5.2.4.1 allows these shooters to also carry a load magazine or unload magazine in the front pocket as long as it is used for specific purposes.

 

5.2.4.2 allows for hand carry.

 

6.2.5.1 calls for a move to open dvision for violation of equipment rules.

 

FWIW, I asked three other RM's and two other RMI's who were at the match about the call. All the RM's agreed, and one RMI disagreed with his fellow RMI.

 

So on a stage where mags start on a table, what's the penalty if an Open shooter picks up a mag and sticks it in his waistband rather than into a mag pouch?

[Gary Stevens]

As I understand it, and until told otherwise by DNROI, the mag retainers applys to before the start signal, unless otherwise stated in the WSB. All shooters, regardless of division, must start in a legal configuration per 5.2.4.

 

As an Open shooter they are not restricted as to placement of magazines as Production, Carry Optics, and Single Stack are..

 

So after the start signal they may stow their mags anywhere but their mouth.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

So after the start signal they may stow their mags anywhere but their mouth.

 

"Magazines may never be held or carried in the mouth for Divisions with equipment position restrictions specified in Appendix D, Item 12."

 

Looks like the mouth restriction doesn't apply to open or limited.

[Gary Stevens]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

"Magazines may never be held or carried in the mouth for Divisions with equipment position restrictions specified in Appendix D, Item 12."

 

Looks like the mouth restriction doesn't apply to open or limited.

 

You are correct sir! One should never try to always use memory as your reference

[Southpaw]

3 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

As I understand it, and until told otherwise by DNROI, the mag retainers applys to before the start signal, unless otherwise stated in the WSB. All shooters, regardless of division, must start in a legal configuration per 5.2.4.

 

As an Open shooter they are not restricted as to placement of magazines as Production, Carry Optics, and Single Stack are..

 

So after the start signal they may stow their mags anywhere but their mouth.

 

I guess I'm confused. What rule says an Open shooter can carry a mag in a holster, but a Production/SS/CO shooter can't? The holster already would be behind shooter's hip bone so Appendix E3 wouldn't come into play.

[Gary Stevens]

17 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

 

I guess I'm confused. What rule says an Open shooter can carry a mag in a holster, but a Production/SS/CO shooter can't? The holster already would be behind shooter's hip bone so Appendix E3 wouldn't come into play.

I certainly think this issue needs clarity, but since I don't have that authority, I'll go with my understanding until told otherwise by DNROI. I see a distinction between pre-start signal and post- start signal.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Gary Stevens

[Southpaw]

4 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

What rule says they can't?

 

I don't get it. You're saying an Open shooter can carry mags in a holster since there's no rule against it. So then why can't a SS shooter do the same since holster is behind his hip bone? 5.2.4 applies to all divisions it would seem. (Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand your ruling)