Bumps to Open - Magazine from Table

[DKorn]

At a recent major match i attended and worked, two shooters were bumped to Open on a stage involving the unloaded gun and all magazines starting on/under a table. I was only present for one of them, so I’ll try to relay what happened as I was told by other ROs working the match.

 

1 - Single Stack shooter picked up a magazine from the table and placed it in his holster. I do not know whether he subsequently retrieved and used the magazine or not. He was bumped to Open for violating 5.2.4 because a holster is not a retention device specifically designed to hold a magazine.

 

2 - Production shooter picked up a magazine from the table and placed it in his front pocket. Shooter did not retrieve the magazine from his pocket and use it at any subsequent point during the stage. He was bumped to Open for violating 5.2.4.1 because the pocket was forward of his hip bones. 

 

There was a lot of discussion of these 2 calls amongst the staff later and no clear consensus, so I’m interested in hearing what this community thinks about it.

 

Do you agree with each call? If you were the shooter, would you file for arbitration in either case? If you were the RM or on an arb committee, what would your decision be?

[Sarge]

I would have arbed the pocket call for sure. Nothing in the rule says I can’t put a mag in an illegal pocket. It only says I can’t retrieve it during the COF.

[Rnlinebacker]

I would have arbed the pocket call for sure. Nothing in the rule says I can’t put a mag in an illegal pocket. It only says I can’t retrieve it during the COF.

totally agree

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[motosapiens]

both calls sound bogus to me. For putting a magazine in a holster, i could *maybe* see a procedural, but not a bump to open, because if it isn't legal in production, it wouldn't be legal in open either. Reading the rule below, it says you can retrieve them and use them from the hand. Some overzealous RO's might say putting it in the holster is not 'from the hand', but then the rule appears to specifically allow putting a magazine in you mouth (which is not any more of a hand than a holster is) for divisions without equipment position restrictions...

 

5.2.4.2 When stipulations in the Written Stage Briefing require placement of magazines or speed loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices prior to the start signal, retrieving them and using them from the hand is allowed. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12, as long as they remain in the hand. Magazines may never be held or carried in the mouth for Divisions with equipment position restrictions specified in Appendix D, Item 12.

[DKorn]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

both calls sound bogus to me. For putting a magazine in a holster, i could *maybe* see a procedural, but not a bump to open, because if it isn't legal in production, it wouldn't be legal in open either. Reading the rule below, it says you can retrieve them and use them from the hand. Some overzealous RO's might say putting it in the holster is not 'from the hand', but then the rule appears to specifically allow putting a magazine in you mouth (which is not any more of a hand than a holster is) for divisions without equipment position restrictions...

 

5.2.4.2 When stipulations in the Written Stage Briefing require placement of magazines or speed loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices prior to the start signal, retrieving them and using them from the hand is allowed. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12, as long as they remain in the hand. Magazines may never be held or carried in the mouth for Divisions with equipment position restrictions specified in Appendix D, Item 12.

 

Honestly, for the mag in the holster, I think he either got totally screwed or got off easy. If what he did is a violation (putting a mag into something that is neither a mag pouch nor a holster), then it would also be a violation in Open, which would mean he is shooting for no score. Otherwise, no penalty. I see no way to justify the bump to Open on that one.

[rowdyb]

This makes me feel like I shoot boring matches...

[Bench]

21 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

This makes me feel like I shoot boring matches...

LOL, there's ALWAYS something interesting when the match is bumped up a notch

[Joe4d]

7 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

Honestly, for the mag in the holster, I think he either got totally screwed or got off easy. If what he did is a violation (putting a mag into something that is neither a mag pouch nor a holster), then it would also be a violation in Open, which would mean he is shooting for no score. Otherwise, no penalty. I see no way to justify the bump to Open on that one.

DQ, 10.6.1 for cheating and didnt get much of an advantage but that is the rule that applies. Throwing a mag in a holster isnt allowed in open either, so bump to Open was BS.

The production guy shoulda arbed.  I dont see how that was even discussed.
5.2.4.1 Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “if clear, hammer down and holster”. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty).

[DKorn]

37 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

DQ, 10.6.1 for cheating and didnt get much of an advantage but that is the rule that applies. Throwing a mag in a holster isnt allowed in open either, so bump to Open was BS.

The production guy shoulda arbed.  I dont see how that was even discussed.
5.2.4.1 Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “if clear, hammer down and holster”. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty).

 

I don’t think 10.6 is appropriate at all for the mag in the holster. It wasn’t done as a way to bypass the rules; he was actually unaware that what he was doing wasn’t allowed. Apparently he shoots IPSC in Canada and it’s allowed. I think shooting for no score makes more sense, and is justifiable under 5.2.4 (magazines must be carried in specifically designed carriers or pockets) and 6.2.5.1 (if you don’t meet the requirements of Open then you shoot for no score). Even if he did it intentionally to try to gain an advantage, the penalties already applicable are severe enough that a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct doesn’t make sense to even consider, in my opinion. 

[cas]

Most stages start with a magazine being retained by a holster. 

Just because there's a gun around it...

Edited September 12, 2019 by cas

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, DKorn said:

 

I don’t think 10.6 is appropriate at all for the mag in the holster. It wasn’t done as a way to bypass the rules; he was actually unaware that what he was doing wasn’t allowed. Apparently he shoots IPSC in Canada and it’s allowed. I think shooting for no score makes more sense, and is justifiable under 5.2.4 (magazines must be carried in specifically designed carriers or pockets) and 6.2.5.1 (if you don’t meet the requirements of Open then you shoot for no score). Even if he did it intentionally to try to gain an advantage, the penalties already applicable are severe enough that a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct doesn’t make sense to even consider, in my opinion. 

Ignorance of the rule, or law is no excuse ,, So that isnt the issue.
But I agree with your point. and stand corrected. I  looked in the penalty and DQ sections, was closest I could find.
Yep seems "no score" would be correct,  6.2.5.1

[nelson1each]

Ever since I’ve have switched to open I completely forget about people accidentally getting themselves bumped to open

[DKorn]

54 minutes ago, nelson1each said:

Ever since I’ve have switched to open I completely forget about people accidentally getting themselves bumped to open

 

My favorite is the people who do it at a match where there is no Open (say, low cap nats, or Battle in the Bluegrass, for example). Technically they’re shooting for no score, but stats often puts them in Open so that their scores are still visible, so they get to joke about “winning Open at Single Stack Nationals”. 

[stick]

Production shooter got hosed on the rules.  But seriously, how much arguing could he realistically do before he got DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct?

[NickBlasta]

11 hours ago, motosapiens said:

both calls sound bogus to me. For putting a magazine in a holster, i could *maybe* see a procedural, but not a bump to open, because if it isn't legal in production, it wouldn't be legal in open either. Reading the rule below, it says you can retrieve them and use them from the hand. Some overzealous RO's might say putting it in the holster is not 'from the hand', but then the rule appears to specifically allow putting a magazine in you mouth (which is not any more of a hand than a holster is) for divisions without equipment position restrictions...

 

5.2.4.2 When stipulations in the Written Stage Briefing require placement of magazines or speed loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices prior to the start signal, retrieving them and using them from the hand is allowed. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12, as long as they remain in the hand. Magazines may never be held or carried in the mouth for Divisions with equipment position restrictions specified in Appendix D, Item 12.

 

Open shooters get a pass (because they are "no" for D-12), if you carry a magazine anywhere but a pouch or your hand you're violating the gear rules, since single stack is a yes for D-12 you go to open.

[JWBaldree]

Somebody explain this to me like I’m 2. How does dropping a mag into a SS legal holster even begin to be remotely helpful? I’m trying to picture picking up the mag with the gun hand, dropping into the holster, then actually grabbing the gun and going, and then trying to reload out of the holster. Maybe I’m missing the concept here, but all I can think of is retarded gaming or brain fart.



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[WaJim]

43 minutes ago, JWBaldree said:

Somebody explain this to me like I’m 2. How does dropping a mag into a SS legal holster even begin to be remotely helpful? I’m trying to picture picking up the mag with the gun hand, dropping into the holster, then actually grabbing the gun and going, and then trying to reload out of the holster. Maybe I’m missing the concept here, but all I can think of is retarded gaming or brain fart.



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Yup,  that's what I was thinking. Cross draw a magazine? Why...

 

He must have been skinny.

[nasty618]

Quote

he was actually unaware that what he was doing wasn’t allowed

 

i dont know how many, but i would say A LOT people that i have seen get penalties (up to DQs) were getting them while being completely unaware of the fact that their actions were against the rules... ignorance of the rules excuses no one.  Right?

[DKorn]

Just now, nasty618 said:

 

i dont know how many, but i would say A LOT people that i have seen get penalties (up to DQs) were getting them while being completely unaware of the fact that their actions were against the rules... ignorance of the rules excuses no one.  Right?

 

Ignorance of the rules is no excuse, but 10.6 is a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. I can’t think of any rule that you could accidentally break where it would be an appropriate penalty. Can you give me an example?

[IHAVEGAS]

9 hours ago, stick said:

Production shooter got hosed on the rules.  But seriously, how much arguing could he realistically do before he got DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct?

 

Right up to the point where he was told that the decision was made and he would need to file for further arbitration. 

 

 Pretty much like any sport I think.

[driver8M3]

9 hours ago, stick said:

 But seriously, how much arguing could he realistically do before he got DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct?

 

There is really no need for arguing. The rules include a process for adjudicating disagreements. If you disagree with an RO's call, ask the CRO. If you disagree with the CRO's call, ask the RM. If you disagree with the RM's call, in some situations, including this one, you can arbitrate it. All of these things can, and should, be done calmly.

[DKorn]

8 hours ago, JWBaldree said:

Somebody explain this to me like I’m 2. How does dropping a mag into a SS legal holster even begin to be remotely helpful? I’m trying to picture picking up the mag with the gun hand, dropping into the holster, then actually grabbing the gun and going, and then trying to reload out of the holster. Maybe I’m missing the concept here, but all I can think of is retarded gaming or brain fart.



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Here’s what I’m thinking was going through his head, although I’m not sure. I can ask him if I get a chance. 

 

-When I shot the stage (Production), I used 4 magazines total. He was shooting minor, so most likely he needed the same. 

-I picked up 3 mags and stuffed them into pouches (using both hands), then picked up the gun and my last mag while moving to the shooting area. 

-While I was picking up my 3rd mag, my right hand had nothing to do as far as helping grab mags. 

-Maybe he grabbed a 4th mag and threw it in the holster as a backup just in case?

 

[nasty618]

11 minutes ago, DKorn said:

10.6 is a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. I can’t think of any rule that you could accidentally break where it would be an appropriate penalty. Can you give me an example?

 

Not disagreeing with your assessment at all... in fact i would agree with it.  Mine was more of a general statement (sorry just saw that someone already pointed it out earlier).

[Nevadazielmeister]

9 hours ago, JWBaldree said:

Somebody explain this to me like I’m 2. How does dropping a mag into a SS legal holster even begin to be remotely helpful? I’m trying to picture picking up the mag with the gun hand, dropping into the holster, then actually grabbing the gun and going, and then trying to reload out of the holster. Maybe I’m missing the concept here, but all I can think of is retarded gaming or brain fart.



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The advantage would be that should some malfunction occur, there would be an additional magazine to pull out. Yes, there would be no advantage gained by using the holster instead of the pouch as the pouch is easier to access. Maybe the shooter(s) had more magazines than they could carry and just wanted that one extra in the holster for backup?

 

But nonetheless, it is unsafe and therefore, against the rules. 

[DKorn]

39 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

The advantage would be that should some malfunction occur, there would be an additional magazine to pull out. Yes, there would be no advantage gained by using the holster instead of the pouch as the pouch is easier to access. Maybe the shooter(s) had more magazines than they could carry and just wanted that one extra in the holster for backup?

 

But nonetheless, it is unsafe and therefore, against the rules. 

 

I don’t see how this is a safety issue at all - if it was unsafe, then shouldn’t it be listed in 10.5 as unsafe gun handling and not an equipment rule?

 

I think the rule exists so that you can’t just stuff magazines in your belt or anywhere you want. Since you can’t move pouches around mid match (5.2.5.3), if you want to be able to stow a

magazine in a given spot on your belt on a specific stage, you have to have a pouch (or magnet, if allowed in your division) there for the entire match.