Limited vs Production

[Stafford]

Which division is the easiest to do well/improve in for the typical average competitor. Assume the shooter has a top quality pistol and accessories for either division. 

[aandabooks]

Both are tough divisions for overall hit factors to move up on the classification system.  Doing well in your matches will depend on what kind of shooters you have in your area.  It is pretty tough to say that one is harder or easier than the other.  They are quite different in the way that you approach shooting them.  

[RJH]

Talking classification and majors here; since it is all on a curve all divisions are about the same in hardness.  My classifiers (assuming i don't screw up) all tend to run pretty close to the same percentage regardless of division.  Well, I shot very few matches using optics so i do a little less good in them right now.   The way to move up and do well in any division is pick one and practice. USPSA  only lets you be one classification lower than your highest division for a reason, there ain't much difference

[zzt]

Limited is easier to shoot for noobs.  CO is also a good starting point if they want to shoot minor.

[rowdyb]

3 hours ago, Stafford said:

easiest to do well/improve in for the typical average competitor

What do you mean by "easiest"?

 

How do you do you define doing well/improving?

 

What is an average competitor?

[Stafford]

40 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

What do you mean by "easiest"?

 

How do you do you define doing well/improving?

 

What is an average competitor?

 

Didn’t define it on purpose. Why, because those are difficult terms to describe in the format of USPSA. I’m still trying to get a decent handle on how it’s scored. I can only describe it from my viewpoint in shooting 4 local USPSA matches and I really don’t know how good my other competitors are or how much of an advantage their pistols are over what I’m shooting.

 

Easiest = which division most new shooters (less than two years shooting experience) who are also new to competition will do well in. This is also vague in terms of age/natural ability/mobility/eyesight/other physical issues. 

 

Doing well/improving = moving from the bottom third of overall/division to middle of the pack overall and in division. Again, this is dependent on the other competitors and who shows up to compete.

 

Average = practice dry firing one to two days per week, shoots at the range weekly for practice, and competes once or twice per month. For all I know, my other competitors only shoot at the matches I see them at and never practice or dry fire and do drills. Or, they dry fire over an hour every night, practice reloading drills on a timer daily, shoot three times a week for practice, and compete at other matches in addition to when I see them, and have 5-25+ years of experience.

 

P.S. I realize I’m overthinking this (just go shoot) but, I don’t have family members or co-workers who shoot, much less compete. So, I like asking questions and discussing online.

[lstange]

There isn't much difference. Median time to get to the next classification level is about the same in all divisions.

 

Just pick a division that is popular. It's not much fun winning the Revolver or Limited 10 division at your local match if you're the only one there. I would avoid Open initially as the equipment is expensive, so this means Limited, Production, Carry Optics, or PCC.

 

As far as classification goes, the new divisions that don't yet have their own high hit factors tend to be easier, but this is temporary. I think PCC high hit factors already went up, and CO will soon follow.

[shred]

Production generally has the most new shooters, so the bottom of the pack is easier to beat if you practice more than they do.

 

Limited (Major PF)  is a bit more forgiving on reloads and hits on paper--- but it's also something most competitors moved into rather than started with, so the median skill level is often a bit higher.

 

[OdinIII]

If you only look at the overall ranking which is what most look at anyway then it doesn’t matter what division you shoot. If you shoot Limited then you’ll cut a few seconds off from less reloads but you need that practice to move your classification up so that could be looked at as a negative.

My advice for new shooters is always Limited if you don’t have a lot of mags and carriers. Production if you buy a belt and mag carriers. CO if you want to run a dot. My opinion is through A class or maybe M that the gun and gear is almost irrelevant as long as it works. Obviously it does need decent sights and the controls needs to fit the person.

I do know how it is though. I’ve been obsessing over trying to gain a half ounce with a guide rod recently. Lol!

[rowdyb]

I'm gonna go out on a limb then and say it is easier to be 50% of the best Prod shooters in the nation than it is to be 50% of the best Limited shooters in the nation. Shooting minor is easier on you physically. The guns take less work to run perfectly. Everyone has roughly the same gear whereas in Lim it can be wildly divergent. And usually the reloads are hidden in movement.

 

To me it seems a question you're asking kind of obliquely is, "how do i measure my improvement?".

 

As you've noted there can be wild differences in a local match based on who shows up. I know a lot of clubs out in the wild that have not a single M of GM and if you're that clubs only A and you're beating everyone up week and week out you'll think you're awesome. Usually that person has an eye opening moment when they do their first area match.

 

That's why I at least find it easier to have people track their progress via classifiers and by looking at how many penalties they shoot and their C to A ratio of hits when they start out and just don't know what they don't know. Can you get to the point you shoot locals without a single penalty? If not, then you have some improving to do. How many C hits do you have relative to A hits? If you shot 8 C at a match and 89 A hits well then 8 is 8.2% of 97 combined hits. Is that number going up or down for you?

[Stafford]

6 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb then and say it is easier to be 50% of the best Prod shooters in the nation than it is to be 50% of the best Limited shooters in the nation. Shooting minor is easier on you physically. The guns take less work to run perfectly. Everyone has roughly the same gear whereas in Lim it can be wildly divergent. And usually the reloads are hidden in movement.

 

To me it seems a question you're asking kind of obliquely is, "how do i measure my improvement?".

 

As you've noted there can be wild differences in a local match based on who shows up. I know a lot of clubs out in the wild that have not a single M of GM and if you're that clubs only A and you're beating everyone up week and week out you'll think you're awesome. Usually that person has an eye opening moment when they do their first area match.

 

That's why I at least find it easier to have people track their progress via classifiers and by looking at how many penalties they shoot and their C to A ratio of hits when they start out and just don't know what they don't know. Can you get to the point you shoot locals without a single penalty? If not, then you have some improving to do. How many C hits do you have relative to A hits? If you shot 8 C at a match and 89 A hits well then 8 is 8.2% of 97 combined hits. Is that number going up or down for you?

 

Yeah, that’s what I’m asking. At my last match, a classifier match, there were three M’s, an A, five B’s, seven C’s, couple of D’s, and a bunch of U’s including me. I don’t really count the PCC’s in my mind, plus they malfunction a lot it seems - so whatever... The top M was so fast it was mind boggling - young - athletic - natural....

 

Shot Limited Major at my first match with a G22 and did ok but very, very slow. Shot a G17 at my second match and went fast but inaccurate. Shot a M&P 2.0 3.6” at my third match and was extremely accurate but slow again, and shot the m&p again at the classifier match and went faster, but less accurate. 

 

Thinking I should add a magwell and fiber optic sights to my G22 and shoot Major, or put sights on my M&P and shoot Production. Just can’t decide. But I’m only 4 matches in so... after 25 matches I can decide - right? But I still like to discuss now!

[Stafford]

Oh, and to further complicate matters, I really like the 2.0 3.6” M&P better. I like the way it feels and I think I shoot M&P’s better than Glocks. Even with the the trigger that everyone hates.

 

Even though the Glock22 is readily available to build into  a decent Limited Major pistol. 

[MikeBurgess]

Shooy what you have for a while, if you like the M+P shoot it, it's not the best gun for production but as said earlier at this point in your development it wont make much difference. Once you have enough matches under your belt to actually know what division and equipment your actually want to compete with then get something you like that fits the division and go for it.
To put it in perspective while that compact M+P is not ideal I would be surprised if it would cost a top level shooter more than 5% of their score as you move down from there the difference gets smaller. That said a gun that doesnt fit you for one reason or another can be a big hindrance, and having a "nice" gun you want to shoot because you like it is an advantage because you are likely to practice with it more.

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[rowdyb]

13 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

top level shooter more than 5%

I would kill for a 2% improvement. To put that into perspective the last Prod nats I was 44th overall and 77.32 percent. And beating some hefty names. But give me 2% and now I'm 34th place! Let alone the 5% you're talking about that would move me to 22nd overall. So yeah, to me 5% is wayyyyy to much to ever give up.

[Stafford]

The likelihood that I ever shoot beyond a local match is negligible....

[Stafford]

2 hours ago, OdinIII said:

If you only look at the overall ranking which is what most look at anyway then it doesn’t matter what division you shoot. If you shoot Limited then you’ll cut a few seconds off from less reloads but you need that practice to move your classification up so that could be looked at as a negative.

My advice for new shooters is always Limited if you don’t have a lot of mags and carriers. Production if you buy a belt and mag carriers. CO if you want to run a dot. My opinion is through A class or maybe M that the gun and gear is almost irrelevant as long as it works. Obviously it does need decent sights and the controls needs to fit the person.

I do know how it is though. I’ve been obsessing over trying to gain a half ounce with a guide rod recently. Lol!

 

Thinking of buying a belt,  fiber optic sights for the M&P 3.6, another couple of mag pouches and running production. Why not? I like the gun and I’ll have a place to go from...

[Joe4d]

7 hours ago, Stafford said:

Which division is the easiest to do well/improve in for the typical average competitor. Assume the shooter has a top quality pistol and accessories for either division. 

Right there is a pretty big assumption coming from someone unfamiliar with the game. The likely hood of you having top quality ( for the game) pistol and accessories for the game are slim. Shoot what you have and learn the game and what works for you in the game.
Hey I did same thing, shot one match and bought "Top quality gear" only to later find out it was all wrong

[OdinIII]

 
Thinking of buying a belt,  fiber optic sights for the M&P 3.6, another couple of mag pouches and running production. Why not? I like the gun and I’ll have a place to go from...

Sounds like a plan.

Just last Sunday I had a fellow shooter ask if I wanted to try his M&P with a FF3. I had mentioned holding a P320 X5 Legion and I had seriously thought about buying it instead of the backup G34 that I need. He said plainly that he had tried Glock’s and couldn’t press the trigger correctly and is more accurate with the M&P. I don’t understand how that is possible but it goes to show that everyone is different.

[MikeBurgess]

I would kill for a 2% improvement. To put that into perspective the last Prod nats I was 44th overall and 77.32 percent. And beating some hefty names. But give me 2% and now I'm 34th place! Let alone the 5% you're talking about that would move me to 22nd overall. So yeah, to me 5% is wayyyyy to much to ever give up.

Ok I may have overstated the performance gains avaliable between a compact M+P and whatever the current production hotness is. But the point I was trying to make is when you are 60% behind practice is where the gains are not equipment. And when your new to the game you dont know enough to make educated equipment decisions.

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[Hi-Power Jack]

9 hours ago, Stafford said:

 

Thinking of buying a belt,  fiber optic sights for the M&P 3.6, another couple of mag pouches and running production. Why not? I like the gun and I’ll have a place to go from...

 

 

Bingo.    Shoot what you like to shoot.    From reading your description of

your only four matches, it seems like nothing is holding you back more

than your understanding of the basics of shooting.

 

Pick your favorite gun (M&P 3.6), outfit it properly, and start practicing -

lot of dry firing, getting some instruction in how to shoot quickly,

and lots of practice to learn how to shoot deliberately and do everything

else quickly.

 

There is a HUGE difference between :   1.  shooting as fast as you can

and hoping you hit the target,  and  2.  shooting as fast as you can

hit the target.    To a beginner, they may sound like the same thing, but

they are diametrically opposed to one another.   Eschew #1, and

embrace #2.

 

NEXT YEAR, come back for another discussion of which gun to buy.    

[Stafford]

9 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Right there is a pretty big assumption coming from someone unfamiliar with the game. The likely hood of you having top quality ( for the game) pistol and accessories for the game are slim. Shoot what you have and learn the game and what works for you in the game.
Hey I did same thing, shot one match and bought "Top quality gear" only to later find out it was all wrong

 

I agree, but “top quality gear” - whatever that is, is just part of this hypothetical discussion. I assume a Shadow 2 is a top quality pistol for Production and a TSO or  custom 2011 is top quality for Limited Major. Since I don’t have any of those, or any plans to purchase anytime soon, “top quality” whatever (guns, mags, baseplates, magwells, frame weights, guide rods, springs, belts, triggers, grips, and holsters) is just to say All Things Being Equal for the given shooter.

[Stafford]

37 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

 

Bingo.    Shoot what you like to shoot.    From reading your description of

your only four matches, it seems like nothing is holding you back more

than your understanding of the basics of shooting.

 

Pick your favorite gun (M&P 3.6), outfit it properly, and start practicing -

lot of dry firing, getting some instruction in how to shoot quickly,

and lots of practice to learn how to shoot deliberately and do everything

else quickly.

 

There is a HUGE difference between :   1.  shooting as fast as you can

and hoping you hit the target,  and  2.  shooting as fast as you can

hit the target.    To a beginner, they may sound like the same thing, but

they are diametrically opposed to one another.   Eschew #1, and

embrace #2.

 

NEXT YEAR, come back for another discussion of which gun to buy.    

 

You are correct, the basics of shooting is what I need to improve on more than anything. In some ways, I think I should stop competing in USPSA for a while, but it’s fun. Prior to my first USPSA match, I was focused on GSSF Indoor, putting 10 shots downrange in 15 seconds per stage. I took some instruction from someone who had me focusing on trigger control, grip, and slow fire. In fact, I was so focused on working slow that I wasn’t getting my 10 shots down range in 15 seconds in one of my GSSF matches. His method was learn to shoot slowly and master the trigger first and speed will come later.

[rowdyb]

1 hour ago, Stafford said:

shoot slowly and master the trigger first and speed will come later

Depends on what your goals are...

 

It is speed AND accuracy. Thinking of it as speed OR accuracy will only limit you.

 

If I go back to when I started shooting I've always been a slower/more points kind of guy. And I beat the faster/drop points guys for years who started when I did. But as time went on it was easier for them to bring in accuracy than it was for me to develop speed. And they're now beating me all the time. Over time it is easier to learn accuracy than it is to learn to speed up.

[zzt]

This ^^^^.

[Stafford]

A little off-topic, but related to my slow shooting for accuracy: is IDPA counter intuitive to USPSA?