CO. if my dot died halfway in a match and i shot the rest

[Sandbagger123]

with my iron sights, would there be any penalty ?    So lets say i am shooting CO.  halfway through the match my optic goes down.  i happen to have back up sights that work  and shoot the rest of the match with them.   would this be allowed by the rules?

[Kiwishoot]

IPSC - Need permission from the Range Master BEFORE trying to modify the firearm.

 

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor's original firearm and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute firearm and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:
5.1.7.1 The substitute firearm satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division; and
5.1.7.2 In using the substitute firearm the competitor will not gain an advantage; and other stuff.....
 

[Sdlrodeo]

If you had one CO gun with backup Irons that you started the match with, I would say you could continue without any approval from anyone. There is no prohibition of backup irons in CO. It is the “same firearm and type of sights” for the whole match whether you use irons or the dot. 

 

Now, if you had a slide with only irons and put that on your CO gun to finish, I would say you’d need approval and would probably get denied as there is no optic (working or not). However, in my opinion and generally speaking, you’d be at a significant disadvantage shooting irons against a field of dots. 

[aandabooks]

I believe you would have to leave the optic in place and just shoot the irons.  It is a requirement of the CO division that there is an optic on the gun but nothing says that you have to use it.

[HCH]

14 minutes ago, aandabooks said:

I believe you would have to leave the optic in place and just shoot the irons.  It is a requirement of the CO division that there is an optic on the gun but nothing says that you have to use it.

 

Correct. 

 

If you take the dot off and use irons, you go to Open. 

[DKorn]

Non working optic and you use your backup irons = totally okay. 

 

Take the optic off and just use irons in Carry Optics = bump to Open. 

[MikeBurgess]

So devils advocate question, 

 

A shooter has their optic fall off during a course of fire, do they get moved for open for using a non division compliant gun during a course of fire?

[StealthyBlagga]

4 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

So devils advocate question, 

 

A shooter has their optic fall off during a course of fire, do they get moved for open for using a non division compliant gun during a course of fire?

 

Match DQ per rule 5.1.8 (unsportsmanlike conduct) for making a change without RM authorization.

 

Yes, I know this makes no sense, would be grossly disproportionate, and probably would not happen, but this example highlights the stupidity of blindly following the rules as written. The law of unintended consequences seems to apply more and more these days.

[MikeBurgess]

1 minute ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

Match DQ per rule 5.1.8 (unsportsmanlike conduct) for making a change without RM authorization.

 

Yes, I know this makes no sense, would be grossly disproportionate, and probably would not happen, but this example highlights the stupidity of blindly following the rules as written. The law of unintended consequences seems to apply more and more these days.

Agree that is kinda why I asked the question.

 

I lobbied to not have the optic requirement, I understand why they put it in when it was a provisional division, so they could gather some meaningful data on participation with optics on that type of gun rather than Production shooters just messing around, that said I still think the Optic requirement is unnecessary and in this case causes issues with lots of other rules

[motosapiens]

I'm pretty sure breakage is not the same as making a modification, but english is my first language. We have certainly had iron sights break during a stage and no one was dq'd for it.

 

Without searching for specific rules, it seems pretty obvious that if you start the stage with an optic, you're good. If it falls entirely off the gun during the stage, bummer for you, but if you can re-attach it before the next stage, you should be good to go.

[Sarge]

34 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I'm pretty sure breakage is not the same as making a modification, but english is my first language. We have certainly had iron sights break during a stage and no one was dq'd for it.

 

Without searching for specific rules, it seems pretty obvious that if you start the stage with an optic, you're good. If it falls entirely off the gun during the stage, bummer for you, but if you can re-attach it before the next stage, you should be good to go.

Interesting. Clearly not a DQ but I can see a path to Open if you finish the stage with irons only.

[davsco]

56 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Interesting. Clearly not a DQ but I can see a path to Open if you finish the stage with irons only.

that's ridiculous (especially talk of a dq earlier above).  moved to open because you became less competitive than your division provided?  i know optics are required, but coming off mid-stage would be a malfunction and the rules provide for some leniency with malfunctions (such as strong or weak hand only stages).

[aandabooks]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Interesting. Clearly not a DQ but I can see a path to Open if you finish the stage with irons only.

I don't see a bump to open here.  The competitor began a course of fire with the correct equipment and the optic flew off somewhere during the course of fire.  The competitor either completes the course and it is scored as shot or they get a reshoot.  I would equate this to a competitors eyes/ears coming off during a course of fire that is not intentional.  RO would stop the shooter and order the reshoot.

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, aandabooks said:

I don't see a bump to open here.  The competitor began a course of fire with the correct equipment and the optic flew off somewhere during the course of fire.  The competitor either completes the course and it is scored as shot or they get a reshoot.  I would equate this to a competitors eyes/ears coming off during a course of fire that is not intentional.  RO would stop the shooter and order the reshoot.

wait, wut? no, no, no. eye and earpro are safety items, and stopping and reshooting in that situation is because we don't want competitors under *any* circumstances shooting without eye pro or earpro. Having your gun break is tough luck. Scored as shot, fix before the next stage.

[aandabooks]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

wait, wut? no, no, no. eye and earpro are safety items, and stopping and reshooting in that situation is because we don't want competitors under *any* circumstances shooting without eye pro or earpro. Having your gun break is tough luck. Scored as shot, fix before the next stage.

Right.  Eye/ear coming off necessitates a stoppage with a reshoot.  Optic coming off the gun could be a stoppage due to equipment no longer fitting the division with a reshoot after the gun is fixed.  I would be more inclined to go with the tough luck and score it as shot.

[d_striker]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Agree that is kinda why I asked the question.

 

I lobbied to not have the optic requirement, I understand why they put it in when it was a provisional division, so they could gather some meaningful data on participation with optics on that type of gun rather than Production shooters just messing around, that said I still think the Optic requirement is unnecessary and in this case causes issues with lots of other rules

 

They should just remove the requirement.  Then all of the Production shooters that want more than 10 rounds could just load up their guns with 140mm mags and run irons if they chose to, and we could rid the internet of Production-15 threads.  

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, d_striker said:

 

They should just remove the requirement.  Then all of the Production shooters that want more than 10 rounds could just load up their guns with 140mm mags and run irons if they chose to, and we could rid the internet of Production-15 threads.  

 

I agree. and i think it's clear to everyone by now that a dot on a production gun is a pretty significant advantage overall.

[MikeBurgess]

I see several comments that say the equipment fit the division at the start so obviously they are good to go, sounds great, seems fair, except that doesn't work for the rest of your equipment in Production, CO or SS, during a stage you stow a mag in your front pocket in any of the above welcome to open, or at the end of the stage your holster or mag pouches turn out to be not in the correct position, congratulations you shot the stage for no score, so starting in compliance is clearly not the test.

 

I would in reality rule nothing and score it as shot but I would be picking and choosing what rules I wanted to enforce and when and I'm not a big fan of that especially if a simple fix (remove the requirement) exists

[MikeBurgess]

13 minutes ago, d_striker said:

 

They should just remove the requirement.  Then all of the Production shooters that want more than 10 rounds could just load up their guns with 140mm mags and run irons if they chose to, and we could rid the internet of Production-15 threads.  

yes yes yes 

 

or the guy with the milled slide plastic fantastic tacticool whatever thats stippled everywhere

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I see several comments that say the equipment fit the division at the start so obviously they are good to go, sounds great, seems fair, except that doesn't work for the rest of your equipment in Production, CO or SS, during a stage you stow a mag in your front pocket in any of the above welcome to open, or at the end of the stage your holster or mag pouches turn out to be not in the correct position, congratulations you shot the stage for no score, so starting in compliance is clearly not the test.

 

I would in reality rule nothing and score it as shot but I would be picking and choosing what rules I wanted to enforce and when and I'm not a big fan of that especially if a simple fix (remove the requirement) exists

 

so if your holster breaks during the stage, and falls off in front of your hipbones, is that a bump to open?

[Kiwishoot]

3 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

So devils advocate question, 

 

A shooter has their optic fall off during a course of fire, do they get moved for open for using a non division compliant gun during a course of fire?

A pretty broad and peculiar example

I'd be leaning towards IPSC 5.7 with your equipment malfunction during the COF, so the RO should stop you. It'll be scored as shot up to the malfunction and there's no re-shoot, and if you choose to rock up to the next stage with a non divisional firearm, the path is pretty clear.

[d_striker]

6 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

yes yes yes 

 

or the guy with the milled slide plastic fantastic tacticool whatever thats stippled everywhere

 

Good point.  This sounds like a better idea the more one thinks about it.  

 

We would just need to rename the division but that's not a big deal.  It would be much better than changing an existing division that would piss off a lot of people and also better than introducing a new division.  

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, d_striker said:

 

We would just need to rename the division but that's not a big deal.

 

we could call it 'timmay!'

[d_striker]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

we could call it 'timmay!'

 

[MikeBurgess]

20 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

so if your holster breaks during the stage, and falls off in front of your hipbones, is that a bump to open?

I would say no to falling off being a issue but slipping forward (we have all see the guy with the crap holster that slides around) and you would have shot a stage out of compliance per the ruling (I need to check to make sure it was incorporated and not just removed with the rule book update) and you would have shot stage for no score. 

 

It appears that old ruling was inserted into the holster distance measurement portion of the rule book so it no longer seems to apply to location

5.2.5.2 Any competitor who fails the foregoing test will immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division. The Range Master may make allowances for variations in these requirements due to anatomical considerations. Some competitors may not be able to fully comply. Any competitor who shoots a course of fire while out of compliance will receive a zero score for that course of fire, unless specifically exempted by the Range Master. If the RO suspects or is notified that a competitor’s equipment is out of compliance for their relevant division, the RO must measure the distances at that time. Penalties will not be retroactive to previously completed stages and will be based solely on measurements taken on a particular stage. The Range Master must be informed of any penalties applied due to non-compliance.

Edited July 24, 2019 by MikeBurgess
found rule