dauntedfuture Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 What is the start condition for a production, select action pistol that has an external safety that CAN be applied when the hammer is down? Its either hammer down and safety off or hammer down and safety on. 8.1.2.3 looks like its just hammer down; 8.1.2.5 looks like you have to have the safety on too 8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D). 8.1.2.5 With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the firearm (e.g. the thumb safety on a 1911 type handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter. This safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster or loaded in any other USPSA Competition Rules January 2019 42 location stated in the Written Stage Briefing (e.g. table start, in a drawer, etc.), in order to follow 10.5.11. If the primary (thumb) safety cannot be applied when the hammer is down, it is not required when the gun is in that condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJB Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 For DA Production pistol, hammer fully down & safety doesn't have to be on. (If equipped with a de-cocker then decock and holster for the start.) If the DA gun with a safety were to be used in Limited then hammer cocked & safety on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) that's what I have been told; how then do we ignore rule 8.1.2.5? Edited July 15, 2019 by dauntedfuture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJB Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Do you mean 8.1.2.5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Don’t overthink it. In all divisions, a double-action gets to be hammer fully down (half-cock not allowed) and safety off. If the hammer is back, the safety is on. This is true regardless of division or gun type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) I'm not attempting to overthink. If everyone "knows" that's how it is... then what rule tells me that? What about 8.1.2.5? My question is specifically about 8.1.2.3 and 8.1.2.5. Edited July 15, 2019 by dauntedfuture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, dauntedfuture said: I'm not attempting to overthink. If everyone "knows" that's how it is... then what rule tells me that? What about 8.1.2.5? My question is specifically about 8.1.2.3 and 8.1.2.5. 8.1.2.3 has a very important "or" in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, dauntedfuture said: I'm not attempting to overthink. If everyone "knows" that's how it is... then what rule tells me that? What about 8.1.2.5? Read the first line. You’re overthinking instead of reading what is written. It plainly states that 8.1.2.5 only applies to guns in 8.2.5.1 and 8.2.5.3 It does not address the double action guns (which start hammer down) which are addressed in section 8.2.5.2 It skips right over them intentionally and specifically. Edited July 15, 2019 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 yes... again clearly I understand rule 8.1.2.3; that is and was not the question. Explain why 8.1.2.5 would not apply then in addition to 8.1.2.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) Read the first line of .5. Until you actually see what it’s saying. This is extremely simple. Edited July 15, 2019 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said: Read the first line. You’re overthinking instead of reading what is written. It plainly states that .5 only applies to guns in .1 and .3 It does not address the double action guns (which start hammer down) which are addressed in section .2 It skips right over them very very delibrately. again, I am specifically asking about a select action pistol in the first post, not double action. Select action is 8.1.2.3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 The safety part of 8.1.2.3 only applies if the hammer is cocked (because of the "or"). So, when 8.1.2.5 refers to the safety in 8.1.2.3, it is referring to the part of 8.1.2.3 that comes after "or." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Which pistol is this where you can set the safety with the hammer down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, elguapo said: Which pistol is this where you can set the safety with the hammer down. He’s shooting a striker gun like an M&P or Glock or somesuch with a manual safety. Also, unlike CZs? Tanfoglios will let you do that. You just aren’t aware of it because there’s no reason to do so. Edited July 15, 2019 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D). so you may select to comply with the first portion of the rule ___OR___ the second portion of the rule, you do not need to comply with both portions. the first half of the rule makes no mention of "Safety" so 8.1.2.5 is meaningless when complying with that provision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) This does raise a question in my mind. 8.1.2.3 says "hammer FULLY down" yet a decocker rarely makes the hammer go FULLY down. The Prod/CO rules say "hammer down" is Quote A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present. but that is not FULLY down. Much like facing downrange versus facing directly downrange or standing in the box versus standing completely in the box. So should a decked gun need the safety on? I get that 8.1.2.3 says fully down or cocked. Nothing in between is supported. Edited July 15, 2019 by broadside72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 2 hours ago, elguapo said: Which pistol is this where you can set the safety with the hammer down. You can do that with most modern DA/SA pistols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian guy Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 21 minutes ago, broadside72 said: This does raise a question in my mind. 8.1.2.3 says "hammer FULLY down" yet a decocker rarely makes the hammer go FULLY down. The Prod/CO rules say "hammer down" is but that is not FULLY down. Much like facing downrange versus facing directly downrange or standing in the box versus standing completely in the box. So should a decked gun need the safety on? I get that 8.1.2.3 says fully down or cocked. Nothing in between is supported. Check with NROI on that.. I think the interpretation is that for decocker guns wherever the gun decocks the hammer to is fully down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happygunner77 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 5 hours ago, MikeBurgess said: 8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D). so you may select to comply with the first portion of the rule ___OR___ the second portion of the rule, you do not need to comply with both portions. the first half of the rule makes no mention of "Safety" so 8.1.2.5 is meaningless when complying with that provision. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 5 hours ago, broadside72 said: This does raise a question in my mind. 8.1.2.3 says "hammer FULLY down" yet a decocker rarely makes the hammer go FULLY down. The Prod/CO rules say "hammer down" is but that is not FULLY down. Much like facing downrange versus facing directly downrange or standing in the box versus standing completely in the box. So should a decked gun need the safety on? I get that 8.1.2.3 says fully down or cocked. Nothing in between is supported. The rulebook considers them the same if the gun has a decocker. D4 #1 - A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 The rulebook considers them the same if the gun has a decocker. D4 #1 - A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present.Then why the "fully" wording? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 25 minutes ago, broadside72 said: 57 minutes ago, NickBlasta said: The rulebook considers them the same if the gun has a decocker. D4 #1 - A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present. Then why the "fully" wording? Because you can then define fully as having pulled the trigger or pressed the decocker. People who thumb the hammer down to half are violating the definition of fully and go to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Would have been more clear to just say "pull the trigger" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 11 minutes ago, broadside72 said: Would have been more clear to just say "pull the trigger" Well the rule does say OR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 14 hours ago, Southpaw said: You can do that with most modern DA/SA pistols. No you can't. Name them, if you please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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