start condition for production, select action pistol

[dauntedfuture]

What is the start condition for a production, select action pistol that has an external safety that CAN be applied when the hammer is down?  Its either hammer down and safety off or hammer down and safety on.  8.1.2.3 looks like its just hammer down; 8.1.2.5 looks like you have to have the safety on too

 

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D). 

8.1.2.5  With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the firearm (e.g. the thumb safety on a 1911 type handgun).  In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter.  This safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster or loaded in any other USPSA Competition Rules January 2019 42 

location stated in the Written Stage Briefing (e.g. table start, in a drawer, etc.), in order to follow 10.5.11.  If the primary (thumb) safety cannot be applied when the hammer is down, it is not required when the gun is in that condition.   

[BJB]

For DA Production pistol, hammer fully down & safety doesn't have to be on.  (If equipped with a de-cocker then decock and holster for the start.)

 

If the DA gun with a safety were to be used in Limited then hammer cocked & safety on.

[dauntedfuture]

that's what I have been told; how then do we ignore rule 8.1.2.5?

Edited July 15, 2019 by dauntedfuture

[BJB]

Do you mean 8.1.2.5?

[MemphisMechanic]

Don’t overthink it.

 

In all divisions, a double-action gets to be hammer fully down (half-cock not allowed) and safety off.

 

If the hammer is back, the safety is on.

 

This is true regardless of division or gun type.

[dauntedfuture]

I'm not attempting to overthink.  If everyone "knows" that's how it is... then what rule tells me that?  What about 8.1.2.5? 

 

My question is specifically about 8.1.2.3 and 8.1.2.5.

Edited July 15, 2019 by dauntedfuture

[driver8M3]

2 minutes ago, dauntedfuture said:

I'm not attempting to overthink.  If everyone "knows" that's how it is... then what rule tells me that?  What about 8.1.2.5? 

 

My question is specifically about 8.1.2.3 and 8.1.2.5.

8.1.2.3 has a very important "or" in there.

[MemphisMechanic]

6 minutes ago, dauntedfuture said:

I'm not attempting to overthink.  If everyone "knows" that's how it is... then what rule tells me that?  What about 8.1.2.5? 

Read the first line.

 

You’re overthinking instead of reading what is written. It plainly states that 8.1.2.5 only applies to guns in 8.2.5.1 and 8.2.5.3

 

It does not address the double action guns (which start hammer down) which are addressed in section 8.2.5.2

 

It skips right over them intentionally and specifically.

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[dauntedfuture]

yes... again clearly I understand rule 8.1.2.3;  that is and was not the question.  Explain why 8.1.2.5 would not apply then in addition to 8.1.2.5.

[MemphisMechanic]

Read the first line of .5.

Until you actually see what it’s saying.

 

This is extremely simple.

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[dauntedfuture]

 

1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Read the first line.

 

You’re overthinking instead of reading what is written. It plainly states that .5 only applies to guns in .1 and .3

 

It does not address the double action guns (which start hammer down) which are addressed in section .2

 

It skips right over them very very delibrately.

again, I am specifically asking about a select action pistol in the first post, not double action.  Select action is 8.1.2.3.

[driver8M3]

The safety part of 8.1.2.3 only applies if the hammer is cocked (because of the "or").

 

So, when 8.1.2.5 refers to the safety in 8.1.2.3, it is referring to the part of 8.1.2.3 that comes after "or."

[elguapo]

Which pistol is this where you can set the safety with the hammer down.

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, elguapo said:

Which pistol is this where you can set the safety with the hammer down.

 

He’s shooting a striker gun like an M&P or Glock or somesuch with a manual safety.

 

Also, unlike CZs? Tanfoglios will let you do that. You just aren’t aware of it because there’s no reason to do so.

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[MikeBurgess]

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

so you may select to comply with the first portion of the rule ___OR___  the second portion of the rule,  you do not need to comply with both portions.

the first half of the rule makes no mention of "Safety" so 8.1.2.5 is meaningless when complying with that provision. 

[broadside72]

This does raise a question in my mind. 8.1.2.3 says "hammer FULLY down" yet a decocker rarely makes the hammer go FULLY down. The Prod/CO rules say "hammer down" is

Quote

 A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present.

 

but that is not FULLY down. Much like facing downrange versus facing directly downrange or standing in the box versus standing completely in the box.

So should a decked gun need the safety on?
 

I get that 8.1.2.3 says fully down or cocked. Nothing in between is supported.

Edited July 15, 2019 by broadside72

[Southpaw]

2 hours ago, elguapo said:

Which pistol is this where you can set the safety with the hammer down.

 

You can do that with most modern DA/SA pistols.

[caspian guy]

21 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

This does raise a question in my mind. 8.1.2.3 says "hammer FULLY down" yet a decocker rarely makes the hammer go FULLY down. The Prod/CO rules say "hammer down" is

 

but that is not FULLY down. Much like facing downrange versus facing directly downrange or standing in the box versus standing completely in the box.

So should a decked gun need the safety on?
 

I get that 8.1.2.3 says fully down or cocked. Nothing in between is supported.

Check with NROI on that.. I think the interpretation is that for decocker guns wherever the gun decocks the hammer to is fully down.

 

[happygunner77]

5 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

so you may select to comply with the first portion of the rule ___OR___  the second portion of the rule,  you do not need to comply with both portions.

the first half of the rule makes no mention of "Safety" so 8.1.2.5 is meaningless when complying with that provision. 

 

LOL. 

[NickBlasta]

5 hours ago, broadside72 said:

This does raise a question in my mind. 8.1.2.3 says "hammer FULLY down" yet a decocker rarely makes the hammer go FULLY down. The Prod/CO rules say "hammer down" is

 

but that is not FULLY down. Much like facing downrange versus facing directly downrange or standing in the box versus standing completely in the box.

So should a decked gun need the safety on?
 

I get that 8.1.2.3 says fully down or cocked. Nothing in between is supported.

 

The rulebook considers them the same if the gun has a decocker.

 

D4 #1 - A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present.

[broadside72]

 
The rulebook considers them the same if the gun has a decocker.
 
D4 #1 - A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present.

Then why the "fully" wording?

[NickBlasta]

25 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

57 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 
The rulebook considers them the same if the gun has a decocker.
 
D4 #1 - A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present.

Then why the "fully" wording?

 

Because you can then define fully as having pulled the trigger or pressed the decocker. People who thumb the hammer down to half are violating the definition of fully and go to open.

[broadside72]

Would have been more clear to just say "pull the trigger"

[Sarge]

11 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

Would have been more clear to just say "pull the trigger"

Well the rule does say OR

[elguapo]

14 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

You can do that with most modern DA/SA pistols.

No you can't.  Name them, if you please.