start condition for production, select action pistol

[elguapo]

7 hours ago, broadside72 said:

Would have been more clear to just say "pull the trigger"

No the rules are clear to anyone with more than a rudimentary command of English.  Even people like me, for whom English is a second language, have no problem understanding pistol start condition rules.

[broadside72]

I understand English just fine but I am a stickler for consistency of language when it comes to rules and contracts and similar items.

When one rules explicitly says fully down else apply the safety and another rule says decocker is ok (even though most do not put hammer fully down) those are not consistent.

Instead of "fully down" it could say "fully decocked" and define decocked in the glossary then there would be consistency of language.

Remember there is no intent, only the plain language of the rules. But with things like this, lack of commas, etc it's not always so plain now is it?

[MikeBurgess]

48 minutes ago, elguapo said:

No you can't.  Name them, if you please.

All my Tanfoglios will allow the safety to be on with the hammer down, I also have a Daewoo that does. 

[RJH]

54 minutes ago, elguapo said:

No you can't.  Name them, if you please.

I know you can on a Beretta 92. Not sure about any of others

[MikeBurgess]

22 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

I understand English just fine but I am a stickler for consistency of language when it comes to rules and contracts and similar items.

When one rules explicitly says fully down else apply the safety and another rule says decocker is ok (even though most do not put hammer fully down) those are not consistent.

Instead of "fully down" it could say "fully decocked" and define decocked in the glossary then there would be consistency of language.

Remember there is no intent, only the plain language of the rules. But with things like this, lack of commas, etc it's not always so plain now is it?

So for accuracy in language you use the term most to refer to CZ decockers and Sigs?   

Berrettas and Smiths and Tanfoglio/Jerico  (most,all? slide mounted decocker guns) drop the hammer fully. one could likely argue that Most decocker guns in circulation drop the hammer fully

[Gary Stevens]

9 hours ago, broadside72 said:

10 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

 
The rulebook considers them the same if the gun has a decocker.
 
D4 #1 - A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present.

Then why the "fully" wording?

 

Fully down was to prevent shooters from lowering to half cock to achieve a better trigger pull.

[broadside72]

So for accuracy in language you use the term most to refer to CZ decockers and Sigs?   
Berrettas and Smiths and Tanfoglio/Jerico  (most,all? slide mounted decocker guns) drop the hammer fully. one could likely argue that Most decocker guns in circulation drop the hammer fully

And which of those makes are at or near the top of the list in terms of use in this game in production?

[MikeBurgess]

2 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

33 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

So for accuracy in language you use the term most to refer to CZ decockers and Sigs?   
Berrettas and Smiths and Tanfoglio/Jerico  (most,all? slide mounted decocker guns) drop the hammer fully. one could likely argue that Most decocker guns in circulation drop the hammer fully

And which of those makes are at or near the top of the list in terms of use in this game in production?

Not that big a deference really, you see a few more Sig 226's with new shooters and I see about the same number of Berettas as CZ decockers. in the end decocker guns are in total a very very small minority in USPSA. 

[broadside72]

Not that big a deference really, you see a few more Sig 226's with new shooters and I see about the same number of Berettas as CZ decockers. in the end decocker guns are in total a very very small minority in USPSA. 

I get that. I'd just like the rule book to be more consistent in it's language. Avoid the gamers and rule-nazis alike.

[broadside72]

 
Fully down was to prevent shooters from lowering to half cock to achieve a better trigger pull.

My comment was referring to the use of hammer fully down in one rule but only hammer down in the other rule. I know why they want hammer down.

[MikeBurgess]

37 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

56 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Not that big a deference really, you see a few more Sig 226's with new shooters and I see about the same number of Berettas as CZ decockers. in the end decocker guns are in total a very very small minority in USPSA. 

I get that. I'd just like the rule book to be more consistent in it's language. Avoid the gamers and rule-nazis alike.

I totally get and support that, I just couldn't help pointing out the irony in the wording I wish sarcasm came across better in typing

[Southpaw]

2 hours ago, elguapo said:

No you can't.  Name them, if you please.

 

Seriously? I think pretty much all DA/SA guns designed after the CZ75 can do this. Off top of my head: all Berettas (92 series, Cougar series, Px4), HK USP, Tanfoglios, all the metal frames S&Ws such as 5906, various Rugers, etc.

[Gary Stevens]

2 hours ago, broadside72 said:

2 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

 
Fully down was to prevent shooters from lowering to half cock to achieve a better trigger pull.

My comment was referring to the use of hammer fully down in one rule but only hammer down in the other rule. I know why they want hammer down.

 

Please forgive my ignorance.

[elguapo]

3 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

Seriously? I think pretty much all DA/SA guns designed after the CZ75 can do this. Off top of my head: all Berettas (92 series, Cougar series, Px4), HK USP, Tanfoglios, all the metal frames S&Ws such as 5906, various Rugers, etc.

They are decocker guns not selective DA/SA pistols

[Southpaw]

6 minutes ago, elguapo said:

They are decocker guns not selective DA/SA pistols

 

Ok now I think you're just messing with me. I said you can engage the safety with hammer down on many DA/SA guns and you said no you can't. Then I list a bunch of DA/SA guns and you make up some term "decocker guns". Pistols with decockers, safeties, and combo safety/decockers can all be considered DA/SA guns as long as they can fire in both DA and SA. And according to the definition of "selective action" in 8.1.5.4 it sounds like all DA/SA guns are selective action, including the ones I listed previously.

 

But if you're still not satisfied, the HK USP can have the safety engaged whether cocked or not so it can be carried cocked and locked, or DA with safety on or off. There are other guns that operate like that too, I just don't care enough to list them all.

[Brooke]

I would argue that this thread illustrates two things:

 

1. The internet is a giant leap backwards for mankind.

 

2. If you can't understand the rules regarding start conditions for each division (as well as the generic safe start positions for USPSA overall), then your reading comprehension is not good.There is nothing hard to understand on this subject.If you really don't understand Appendix D4 Special Condition #1, get some help.

 

Corollary to 2. If you just want to argue, go to a political or religious web page where that is the intended purpose.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Brooke

[.45 ACP nut]

 

Never mind.

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by .45 ACP nut
Actually thought about my reply.