Dry Firing During Make Ready - DQ?

[Sarge]

I doubt you care at this point but that is an RMI you are saying is wrong.

And, I shot with the guy I mentioned. He no longer shoots. But he clearly asked about pulling the trigger with a mag in the gun.

 

Since you are hung up on this, give this some thought. You drop your mag, see a target and shoot it, then insert mag, rack slide and continue on. You just put your finger inside Trigger Guard during reload.

  Hopefully that clarifies that the Reloading process can indeed be interrupted.

[StealthyBlagga]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

I doubt you care at this point but that is an RMI you are saying is wrong.

And, I shot with the guy I mentioned. He no longer shoots. But he clearly asked about pulling the trigger with a mag in the gun.

 

Since you are hung up on this, give this some thought. You drop your mag, see a target and shoot it, then insert mag, rack slide and continue on. You just put your finger inside Trigger Guard during reload.

  Hopefully that clarifies that the Reloading process can indeed be interrupted.

 

Yeah, I read that in George's signature line. In recognition of this, I have added "respectfully" to my last post.

 

I have been a competitive action shooter for over 35 years, I am an experienced USPSA CRO of many years service, an IROA RO, and a club-level MD/RM. However, none of that is as important as the fact that I can read and understand rules written in plain English. What I am hoping to hear from the someone here is how the rules I called out can be interpreted to allow the shooter to insert a loaded magazine, put his finger in the trigger guard, and then pull that trigger without violating those rules. I am open minded and happy to hear any explanation that isn't "that's the way we have always done it". Precedent and interpretation certainly has its place in gray areas that are not clearly defined, but this is not one of those areas.

 

I will go back and see if I can find that old discussion thread about your buddy... I'm sure it would be an interesting read.

 

The rest of your reply is not really relevant to my original question, which was focused on the Make Ready loading process.

Edited August 28, 2018 by StealthyBlagga

[Janskis]

I don't think dry firing at LAMR is forbidden in IPSC.

 

This addition exists in the rules proposal for the next GA:

Quote

8.7.1 Competitors are prohibited from taking a sight picture and/or dry firing prior to the Start Signal. Violation will result in a warning for the first occurrence and one procedural penalty for each subsequent occurrence in the same match. Competitors may, while pointing their firearm directly at the ground in front of them, adjust electronic sights.

Note that verifying the gun chamber is clear and activating the trigger once, while pointing the firearm at the ground directly in front of the competitor, is not a breach of this rule or Rule 10.5.9.

I interpret this as a clarification and not a new rule, thus implying that it is in fact allowed.

Also, sight picture means aligning the sights with a target. Aiming at ground is OK

Edited August 28, 2018 by Janskis
clarification

[3gunDQ]

5 hours ago, Sarge said:

 

Since you are hung up on this, give this some thought. You drop your mag, see a target and shoot it, then insert mag, rack slide and continue on. You just put your finger inside Trigger Guard during reload.

  Hopefully that clarifies that the Reloading process can indeed be interrupted.

 

Like A Dumbass... I reload pretty fast, sometimes too fast. Saturday I was engaging an array and knew I pulled off the last target but the grab had already occurred and I now have a mag in my left hand.... mag to chest, make up round SHO leaving the position. Reload was like butter. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by 3gunDQ

[Sarge]

56 minutes ago, 3gunDQ said:

 

Like A Dumbass... I reload pretty fast, sometimes too fast. Saturday I was engaging an array and knew I pulled off the last target but the grab had already occurred and I now have a mag in my left hand.... mag to chest, make up round SHO leaving the position. Reload was like butter. 

Yep. Nice work. See it regularly.

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

Yeah, I read that in George's signature line. In recognition of this, I have added "respectfully" to my last post.

 

I have been a competitive action shooter for over 35 years, I am an experienced USPSA CRO of many years service, an IROA RO, and a club-level MD/RM. However, none of that is as important as the fact that I can read and understand rules written in plain English. What I am hoping to hear from the someone here is how the rules I called out can be interpreted to allow the shooter to insert a loaded magazine, put his finger in the trigger guard, and then pull that trigger without violating those rules. I am open minded and happy to hear any explanation that isn't "that's the way we have always done it". Precedent and interpretation certainly has its place in gray areas that are not clearly defined, but this is not one of those areas.

 

I will go back and see if I can find that old discussion thread about your buddy... I'm sure it would be an interesting read.

 

The rest of your reply is not really relevant to my original question, which was focused on the Make Ready loading process.

Of course it’s relevant. You might have asked about making ready but the rule you refer to is about finger placement during loading, Reloading in general. So it applies everywhere if used as you interpret it.

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

What I am hoping to hear from the someone here is how the rules I called out can be interpreted to allow the shooter to insert a loaded magazine, put his finger in the trigger guard, and then pull that trigger without violating those rules.

 

I think it is as easy as realizing that loading is not necessarily a continuous process. Mag in gun empty chamber starts is a fairly common example. You start loading, then you go about your business doing something else & then after the beep you finish loading. 

 

With a d.a. production gun & on classifiers I often like to dry fire & practice inserting mag & then take another snap or two when I'm back to target. Doubt that it helps me but it seems to irritate some of the s.a.o. people who can't do it so it is time well spent. 

 

The first time I saw one of the locked and cocked crowd push his hammer back while holstered so he could draw/snap I had to ask a higher power if that was legal. Makes me nervous because he is the only one who knows if the chamber is clear when he pulls the hammer back on a holstered gun. 

[Sarge]

54 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I think it is as easy as realizing that loading is not necessarily a continuous process. Mag in gun empty chamber starts is a fairly common example. You start loading, then you go about your business doing something else & then after the beep you finish loading. 

 

With a d.a. production gun & on classifiers I often like to dry fire & practice inserting mag & then take another snap or two when I'm back to target. Doubt that it helps me but it seems to irritate some of the s.a.o. people who can't do it so it is time well spent. 

 

The first time I saw one of the locked and cocked crowd push his hammer back while holstered so he could draw/snap I had to ask a higher power if that was legal. Makes me nervous because he is the only one who knows if the chamber is clear when he pulls the hammer back on a holstered gun. 

What did the higher power say about a SAO gun being cocked while in the holster? Safety applied?

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I think it is as easy as realizing that loading is not necessarily a continuous process. Mag in gun empty chamber starts is a fairly common example. You start loading, then you go about your business doing something else & then after the beep you finish loading. 

 

 

yes, exactly. i think anyone can easily tell when you are trying to reload and put your finger in the trigger guard, vs when you pause the loading process to do something else. If you take a sight picture and dryfire with the mag inserted, i'm cool with it. What i'm not cool with is if you have your finger in the trigger guard while inserting the mag, or while racking the slide. in between those two things, you can pause, and everyone will understand that you are no longer 'loading'.

 

I understand the desire to have rules that cover every possible situation in clear and plain english, but it seems to me it just overcomplicates things. we're always going to have some level of interpretation (just like we do in courts of law) to apply our clear rules to particular situations that may not have been foreseen when the rules were written, or to cover points of confusion for some people that were crystal clear in the minds of the people who wrote the rules in the first place.

[Hammer002]

This has to take the cake on one of the most ridiculous and stretching discussions regarding rules I have seen or heard.  We all see many people doing things that just aren't that great an idea, such as a dry fire pull with a full mag.  They do it because they want the feel of the gun's weight to be that of when they shoot.  No, I wouldn't call it a great idea or might say its asking for trouble, but to stretch a rule to make it fit isn't fair to anyone.  OP cant even keep track of what rule stretch allegedly applies to what situation AND THEN gets an attitude when corrected.  Ridiculous.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Hammer002

[StealthyBlagga]

OK, I did a deeper (Google) search of this forum and found a discussion from a couple of years back that pretty much mirrors this one: LINK. On page 5 someone has posted a response from Troy that explains his position that loading is a series of discrete steps that can be paused (such as to dry fire). While this conflicts with the rules I have quoted, he references other discrepancies in the rules to explain his position. Hopefully he is keeping track of this and the many other inconsistencies within the rules with a view to fixing them in the next revision.

 

From my perspective this issue is closed. Dammit - now I have to stop DQing shooters for this reason

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

What did the higher power say about a SAO gun being cocked while in the holster? Safety applied?

 

I forget the guys name, he is a well known range master & it was at a level 2 match, he said he thought it was a dumb practice but that it had been cussed and discussed previously and that it was allowed.

 

The safety was off while the guy was cocking the gun in the holster, if he would have taken the gun out & then applied the safety & then reholstered so he could dry fire I do not think that would have raised any flags with me. 

 

Same match there was a bit of horseplay where one shooter thought it was cute to cock the hammer back on another guys gun so he would have to make a trip to the safety table. Again there was a higher power present (my stage cro), I had no use for it but apparently it is not a dq either. 

[wtturn]

From Troy, dated June 24, 2017:

 

Consensus among the instructors is no DQ, provided the finger is outside the trigger guard when the gun is being loaded, i.e., magazine inserted.  Once that's done, they can dry fire with a finger on the trigger, as long as no safety rules are broken (AD, 180, Sweeping, etc.).  When the slide is racked, the finger must be outside the trigger guard, and safety applied, if possible, when holstering the gun.

Sight pictures with a loaded gun are permitted, again while observing all safety rules.
 

Troy

 

In response to this email for context:

 

QUESTION:  Is the competitor permitted to put his finger inside the trigger guard and press the trigger of a gun with loaded magazine inserted in the firearm (but before chambering a round) during the "make ready" routine?

 

SCENARIO:  The competitor receives the make ready command, draws the gun, loads a magazine in the gun and then begins taking sight pictures and pressing the trigger (on a Glock it would be a "dead" trigger, on a hammer gun the hammer would actually fall).  After dry firing, the competitor racks the slide to chamber a round and holsters.  

 

GOVERNING RULES:  8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the

competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the

handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction

authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5).

 

8.7.1 A competitor is permitted to take a sight picture prior to the start signal.

Such sight picture is only permitted no more than one step from the

“Make Ready” location

 

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,

reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make

Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking

lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

 

Appendix A3 Glossary 

 

Loading:  The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is

completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is

in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and

ready to fire.

 

Loaded Firearm: A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy

round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or

dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm

 

ARGUMENT:  Disagreement arises from the definition of "loading" and whether the loading process can be paused between the insertion of a magazine and the racking of slide into battery.  

The proponents of issuing a DQ under this scenario argue that the definition of loading means that loading begins with the insertion of mag and never ceases until the a round is chambered in battery, thus a DQ for finger in trigger while loading.  

 

Those opposed to issuing DQ argue that "loading" refers to the discrete and separate acts of insertion of mag and racking the slide.  A shooter is permitted to press the trigger in between those discrete and self-contained acts.  The analogy used is "That action is no different that if the competitor reloads during a course of fire expecting a round to be chambered and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber...then racking in a round after realizing there was no round in the chamber..."

 

The argument for DQ creates an apparent contradiction in the definition of "loading" and "loaded firearm".  A gun with a loaded mag and empty chamber is a loaded firearm under the rules, however, under the definition of "loading", that same gun is an uncompleted state of loading because it is not "ready to fire".  Because loaded is a status and loading is an action, it would seem to support the position that the two elements of loading are discrete and distinct and thus there should be no DQ issued.  There is no prohibition against finger in the trigger guard of a loaded gun, only "during loading".

 

CONTEXT:  The thread on Brian Enos forum may be valuable- http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?/topic/239423-1059-sight-picture-and-dropping-hammer-during-lmr-command/&

 

Thanks for your time!

 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Hammer002 said:

This has to take the cake on one of the most ridiculous and stretching discussions regarding rules I have seen or heard. 

 

Don't worry be happy, I like that folks want to make sure that the rules are used as intended even though discussions get tedious. 

 

[JAFO]

I know the OP has stated he's satisfied to end the discussion, but consider this.  A shooter loads a mag at MR but forgets to rack the slide and holsters for the start signal.  Rule 8.1 prohibits the RO from advising the competitor, and when the start signal goes off, the competitor draws, completes what is essentially a dry-fire on the clock, then racks the slide and continues.  There's obviously more of a gap between inserting the magazine and pulling the trigger, but the trigger is still pulled prior to the gun being "ready to fire."

[Nik Habicht]

On 8/27/2018 at 1:30 PM, teros135 said:

 

I'd say no and that he interrupted the loading process to take the sight picture and snap the hammer.  However, I'd be watching him like a hawk, now that there's a mag in the gun.  

 

It seems riskier (for an AD) than just dry firing,  because there's a mag inserted, but it's going to be a self- correcting problem.   

I don't know that I'd be watching a competitor "like a hawk" because of this - anytime the gun is out of the holster, I'm focused on what the shooter is doing.  Worst case scenario, the shooter launches a round, which sails harmlessly downrange and probably into a target.  RO says "Stop, unload and show clear, etc." and processes the DQ.  It's not like I can prevent the discharge if the competitor makes a mistake....

 

[Nik Habicht]

On 8/27/2018 at 1:31 PM, StealthyBlagga said:

 

Interesting - any chance you could post a link to that clarification? I don't see anything in the official USPSA/DNROI rulings.

 

I agree it is not prohibited in 8.7, but appears to be so (at least with a partially loaded gun) under 10.5.9

Guns are either loaded or not.  Competitor inserts mag into gun, then proceeds to cock the hammer and dryfire a number of times.  There's nothing in 10.5.9 to prohibit that.  Now, if he has his finger on the trigger while inserting the mag, racking the slide, dropping the mag to top off, etc - then yes, you're looking at match DQ under 10.5.9....

[Boudreaux78]

It is very interesting to hear so many different sides to the rules. Anything in writing can be interrupted differently by many different people. Mostly because intent, meaning and other non-verbal communication by the author is difficult to pass on in writing. I think the most important thing is safety. Can’t undo a bullet. 

 

Stay safe out there as competitors and range officers!!!

[Akkid17]

I’d be cool with going full ipsc on make ready, the 3-4 min make ready primadonnas are irritating 

[teros135]

1 hour ago, Akkid17 said:

I’d be cool with going full ipsc on make ready, the 3-4 min make ready primadonnas are irritating 

 

Don't see many folks - well, anybody, actually - doing prep that lengthy.  Are these local friends of yours you're talking about?

[Sarge]

32 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

Don't see many folks - well, anybody, actually - doing prep that lengthy.  Are these local friends of yours you're talking about?

Yeah, I doubt it’s 3-4 minutes. But 30 seconds can seem like forever especially on a 15 second stage!

[teros135]

31 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Yeah, I doubt it’s 3-4 minutes. But 30 seconds can seem like forever especially on a 15 second stage!

 

Amen to that!  But ya gotta be ready, y'know, and it takes what it takes

[Akkid17]

Fair enough not 3-4 minutes but over a minute at times. Check all mags, dry fire 5 times, do 6 draws then run thought the whole stage again mentally and finally do a press check and check the mag in the gun before holstering and waiting for the beep. Not just locals, but others at bigger matches and mostly open shooters... 

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, Akkid17 said:

Fair enough not 3-4 minutes but over a minute at times. Check all mags, dry fire 5 times, do 6 draws then run thought the whole stage again mentally and finally do a press check and check the mag in the gun before holstering and waiting for the beep. Not just locals, but others at bigger matches and mostly open shooters... 

When I’m on the timer I just consider it free entertainment.

[Janskis]

21 hours ago, Akkid17 said:

I’d be cool with going full ipsc on make ready, the 3-4 min make ready primadonnas are irritating 

What do you mean with full ipsc? AFAIK we don't limit the LAMR at IPSC