Dry Firing During Make Ready - DQ?

[StealthyBlagga]

This came up after I made a casual comment in another subforum/thread. In order not to derail that discussion, I thought I'd start a new thread here.

 

I see a fair number of shooters who like to dry fire one or more times as part of their Make Ready routine. I have never understood why this is allowed - it would seem to be prohibited by the plain wording of rule 10.5.9:

 

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

 

I started my shooting career in IPSC where such conduct has long been prohibited, but I have been shooting USPSA since moving to the US 20 years ago and the practice goes back at least that far. I assume the reason this persists is that "it has always been thus", and new shooters pick up the habit from more seasoned shooters. Can anyone point me to a rule or ruling (official or Facebook ) that squarely addresses this question?

 

Before this discussion gets off-track, I am not saying that this practice is inherently unsafe, and I realize that if the gun goes bang then that is clearly a DQ. I am just trying to understand why I should not start DQing folks for violation of 10.5.9... we are always fond of saying that rules should be enforced as written without fear or favor, and this appears to be a case where we turn a collective blind eye.

[teros135]

I'd say it's because dry firing is neither loading, unloading, or reloading, so 10.5.9 wouldn't apply.  All three of those involve ammo in the gun, and dry firing doesn't.  

[StealthyBlagga]

2 minutes ago, teros135 said:

I'd say it's because dry firing is neither loading, unloading, or reloading, so 10.5.9 wouldn't apply.  All three of those involve ammo in the gun, and dry firing doesn't.  

 

I have seen people do it with a loaded magazine inserted but an empty chamber. Does that make a difference?

[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

I have seen people do it with a loaded magazine inserted but an empty chamber. Does that make a difference?

I have known guys who do that. While I personally always thought it was dumb because I would inevitably launch a round, I never thought it to be against the rules. There was clarification from DNROI that it was permitted. It was mentioned on here probably 5 years ago or more.

Also, it is not prohibited in 8.7 where sight pics are addressed.

 

[teros135]

12 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

I have seen people do it with a loaded magazine inserted but an empty chamber. Does that make a difference?

 

I'd say no and that he interrupted the loading process to take the sight picture and snap the hammer.  However, I'd be watching him like a hawk, now that there's a mag in the gun.  

 

It seems riskier (for an AD) than just dry firing,  because there's a mag inserted, but it's going to be a self- correcting problem.   

[Akkid17]

Interesting, I have heard of the IPSC rule about dry fire and even not being allowed to take a sight picture at a target on the make ready I did not know that was the case in USPSA as well. That’s another rule that could use some clarification to ensure fair and equitable enforcement

[StealthyBlagga]

17 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I have known guys who do that. While I personally always thought it was dumb because I would inevitably launch a round, I never thought it to be against the rules. There was clarification from DNROI that it was permitted. It was mentioned on here probably 5 years ago or more.

Also, it is not prohibited in 8.7 where sight pics are addressed.

 

 

Interesting - any chance you could post a link to that clarification? I don't see anything in the official USPSA/DNROI rulings.

 

I agree it is not prohibited in 8.7, but appears to be so (at least with a partially loaded gun) under 10.5.9

Edited August 27, 2018 by StealthyBlagga

[StealthyBlagga]

1 minute ago, teros135 said:

 

I'd say no and that he interrupted the loading process to take the sight picture and snap the hammer.  However, I'd be watching him like a hawk, now that there's a mag in the gun.     

 

Hmmm - that seems like a stretch. The glossary definition of "loading" is as follows:

 

Loading: The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire.

 

If the firearm is not yet "ready to fire" then, by this definition, the competitor is still in the process of loading... no?

[George Jones]

In USPSA, sight pictures are allowed.  There is no restriction on loaded sight pictures which I suspect are commonly done on a target you're about to engage after the Beep!

The only restriction is the "no more than one step rule".  8.7.1

 

The act of loading, etc. is irrelevant since a sight picture is not taken during the actual loading of the firearm.  The loading action is already complete.

 

No ruling is required since this has been commonly known for quite a number of years and there is no rule which prevents it anyway.

 

Anyone who does this with a loaded magazine in the gun is not violating a rule.  Taking a bit of a chance of a brain meltdown?  Perhaps, but not illegal.

[mikeg1005]

1 hour ago, StealthyBlagga said:

Before this discussion gets off-track, I am not saying that this practice is inherently unsafe, and I realize that if the gun goes bang then that is clearly a DQ. I am just trying to understand why I should not start DQing folks for violation of 10.5.9... we are always fond of saying that rules should be enforced as written without fear or favor, and this appears to be a case where we turn a collective blind eye.

 

Its REALLY messed up when someone openly admits there is nothing unsafe, wrong, deviating from how stuff is done... but looks for ways to DQ people.

 

I hope your local match director(s) never let you RO another person again. 

[MemphisMechanic]

57 minutes ago, Akkid17 said:

 I did not know that was the case in USPSA as well. That’s another rule that could use some clarification to ensure fair and equitable enforcement

 

Because it isn't. At every match in USPSA history including everything from locals to Nationals, you'll see the top guys dryfiring before loading a round into the chamber. However you interpret the rules to permit this, or read them so that it's questionable.. the fact is that it happens at every USPSA match. That isn't changing in August of 2018 simply because a range lawyer asked a question on some internet forum, so don't get too carried away.

[SCTaylor]

1 hour ago, Akkid17 said:

Interesting, I have heard of the IPSC rule about dry fire and even not being allowed to take a sight picture at a target on the make ready I did not know that was the case in USPSA as well. That’s another rule that could use some clarification to ensure fair and equitable enforcement

 

And you're not supposed to walk stages unless you're squad is up on the stage, after the Stage Briefing is read. IPSC strictly enforces this, USPSA not so much.

 

8.7.3

No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire or the Range Master.

 

IPSC & USPSA share many of the same rules, but enforcement is different.

[sc68cal]

I don't think I've ever seen people be OK with someone from the squad behind them deciding he/she is allowed to jump in and start walking a stage while my squad is still on the stage. Go back to your squad and help them reset!

[SCTaylor]

27 minutes ago, sc68cal said:

I don't think I've ever seen people be OK with someone from the squad behind them deciding he/she is allowed to jump in and start walking a stage while my squad is still on the stage. Go back to your squad and help them reset!

 

If that was in reference to my post. This is regarding the day before, at majors or morning of, at locals. There is ZERO pre-match walking allowed in IPSC. General consensus is don't be a jerk & stay with your squad; on that we all agree.

 

Anyoo back to the dry fire question. The rules are pretty clear but it seems to be  cultural difference. It's just become a part of USPSA to allow the action, IPSC culture say no.  Stoeger talked about the culture difference on his podcast sometime recently.

 

ETA - Racking the slide for anything other than loading is considered dry fire as well. I found that out at US IPSC Nationals...

Edited August 27, 2018 by SCTaylor

[sc68cal]

Just now, SCTaylor said:

If that was in reference to my post. This is regarding the day before at majors or morning of at locals. There is ZERO pre-match walking allowed in IPSC.  

 

Perfect, thanks for the clarification. Meanwhile I've been reading the person on BE who put together https://www.scribd.com/document/144970593/Differences-Between-USPSA-and-IPSC-Rule-Books out of curiosity

[mikeg1005]

10.5.9. doesn't even apply... dryfiring after the make ready command is not defined as loading, reloading, or unloading per the rulebook.  Nice try.

[3gunDQ]

^ and there you have it.

 

why load a mag and drop the hammer? You trying to freak out an RO? Be dumb and DQ?(when they fire a round, bound to happen) I have never seen that done. Wow. 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

Hmmm - that seems like a stretch. The glossary definition of "loading" is as follows:

 

Loading: The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire.

 

If the firearm is not yet "ready to fire" then, by this definition, the competitor is still in the process of loading... no?

 

I do not concur, and in other situations a similar level of common sense is used. For example, if I drop the magazine (starting to unload), but then see a popper still standing and fire the last shot at it, I didn't AD while unloading.... I chose to stop the unload process and fire a deliberate shot, then resume the ULSC thing.

USPSA rules seem pretty clear and easy to me on this topic. Not sure why some people are so cranky about people getting to dryfire during make ready.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, SCTaylor said:

 

And you're not supposed to walk stages unless you're squad is up on the stage, after the Stage Briefing is read. IPSC strictly enforces this, USPSA not so much.

 

8.7.3

No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire or the Range Master.

 

IPSC & USPSA share many of the same rules, but enforcement is different.

 

In general, if there are RO's on the stage but no shooters, pretty much every experienced shooter asks permission to walk the stage. If there are no RO's on the stage, then the stages are generally considered open for walking.

[StealthyBlagga]

4 hours ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

Its REALLY messed up when someone openly admits there is nothing unsafe, wrong, deviating from how stuff is done... but looks for ways to DQ people.

 

I hope your local match director(s) never let you RO another person again. 

 

Read my posts again. It's not that I am particularly keen to DQ folks, but rather I am curious about the apparent contradiction in the rules as written vs. established practice. There are lots of things that are not inherently unsafe, yet are prohibited by USPSA rules. It's not personal - it's just business

 

3 hours ago, mikeg1005 said:

10.5.9. doesn't even apply... dryfiring after the make ready command is not defined as loading, reloading, or unloading per the rulebook.  Nice try.

 

As I posted above, some folks do this with a loaded magazine inserted which would appear to meet the "... while loading..." threshold in rule 10.5.9. I would also add that this practice is NOT "dry fire" by the definition given in the rules glossary:

 

Dry firing: The activation of the trigger and/or action of a firearm which is totally devoid of ammunition.

 

 

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

I do not concur, and in other situations a similar level of common sense is used. For example, if I drop the magazine (starting to unload), but then see a popper still standing and fire the last shot at it, I didn't AD while unloading.... I chose to stop the unload process and fire a deliberate shot, then resume the ULSC thing.

USPSA rules seem pretty clear and easy to me on this topic. Not sure why some people are so cranky about people getting to dryfire during make ready.

 

This is a valid point that supports the possibility of interrupting a gun manipulation sequence. In the unloading case, the RO is required to make a subjective judgment - was the shot fired intentionally before the "if clear..." command (i.e. the shooter was not finished), or was the shot unintentional during unloading? This is one of those "you know it when you see it" situations that we would rather did not exist but does. As a competitor, I would be inclined to reinsert a magazine before firing the shot to ensure I am not at the mercy of a subjective RO judgment. Some level of subjectivity is unavoidable in any rules set, because nobody can predict all eventualities, but I would rather this subjectivity be kept to an absolute minimum.

 

In the case of the Make Ready/loading sequence, however, I think the concept of interruption is on shakier ground because the rules glossary very clearly spells out the definition of loading.

 

I obviously disagree with your position that the rules are clear. Established precedent is clear, and clearly contradictory to the rules as written. I am not cranky about dry firing, just interested in the answer to the question I posed.

 

I guess I find it disconcerting that the rules remain contradictory and in-artfully written, even after many iterations, particularly the imperfect alignment of glossary definitions vs. the main-body rules. I am not really saying anything here that is a surprise to those of us who visit this forum often. It would be nice if the rules committee actually looked at all these established practices and addressed them clearly in the rules, especially for the benefit of newbies. The improved availability of DNROI rulings - in a PDF that can be printed out and inserted into the paper book - was a significant improvement, and it would be nice to see this and many other legacy, unclear or no-longer-relevant rules be updated or eliminated in a future revision.

Edited August 27, 2018 by StealthyBlagga

[George Jones]

After the "Make Ready" command, the shooter is allowed the load the firearm.  Anything he does after that point which is not specifically prohibited or covered under a DQ rule is OK.

 

Trying to shoehorn a violation under "loading" is not correct.

[Sarge]

7 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

Interesting - any chance you could post a link to that clarification? I don't see anything in the official USPSA/DNROI rulings.

 

I agree it is not prohibited in 8.7, but appears to be so (at least with a partially loaded gun) under 10.5.9

There wasn’t a ruling made. DNROI responded to the shooters question about it after an RO had a problem with it. The correspondence was posted here.

[waktasz]

7 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

Hmmm - that seems like a stretch. The glossary definition of "loading" is as follows:

 

Loading: The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire.

 

If the firearm is not yet "ready to fire" then, by this definition, the competitor is still in the process of loading... no?

 

Read what you just wrote. If loading is completed, then you are no longer in the process of loading.

[pjb45]

Mikeg1005:

 

I have known Stealthly for a while.  He is probably one the best most thoughtful CROs out there.  That includes some 13 years of National, Area and local matches.  

 

Do you have any idea of how many matches there are a month in the Phoenix Area?  He has a tad bit of experience.

 

You know not of what you write.

 

 

[StealthyBlagga]

6 hours ago, George Jones said:

After the "Make Ready" command, the shooter is allowed the load the firearm.  Anything he does after that point which is not specifically prohibited or covered under a DQ rule is OK.

 

Trying to shoehorn a violation under "loading" is not correct.

 

I respectfully disagree - the practice of pulling the trigger with a magazine inserted is plainly prohibited by 10.5.9. Let me pull it all together again:

 

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

 

Loading: The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire.

 

As I read it, the competitor started the loading process when he inserted a magazine into the gun and did not complete the loading process until the gun was ready to fire (i.e. a round was in the chamber). Between the beginning and the end of this process (i.e. during loading) he put his finger inside the trigger guard. This is clear violation of 10.5.9.

 

To quote the legendary Oscar Gamble: "They Don't Think It Be Like It Is, But It Do"

 

5 hours ago, Sarge said:

There wasn’t a ruling made. DNROI responded to the shooters question about it after an RO had a problem with it. The correspondence was posted here.

Hmmm, are you sure you are not referring to the clarification about loaded sight pictures. There was a time when it was commonly thought that the gun had to be unloaded during a sight picture, that is until Amidon clarified that the rules say no such thing. I still come across that misunderstanding.

Edited August 28, 2018 by StealthyBlagga