10.5.9 sight picture and dropping hammer during LMR command

[George Jones]

Loading and Unloading are specific actions.  Reloading includes both actions.  If you are not "in the act of", you are no longer doing that particular action.

 

There is no rule which says you cannot have your finger in the trigger guard of a loaded gun.  The "finger" rules require something else to result in a violation, such as Malfunction Clearance, L-U-Reloading and Movement. 

 

See the definitions in App A3.

 

The best defense against a bad call is the rulebook, as in "Please show me the rule that supports what you are saying!"

[MemphisMechanic]

11 hours ago, wtturn said:

The rule he cited informally to me was that I had my finger on the trigger of a loaded firearm and my gun was not covered by the exception granted to the type of gun that must be manually decocked.

 

 

I've chosen my MR procedure just to avoid potentially being hassled by such guys.

 

Draw, sight pictures, trigger presses, etc. Complete a full speed reload and present the gun again, finger off trigger.

 

Pull it back. Rack / presscheck if you feel inclined, manually decock, holster, replace 1st mag, assume start position.

 

Your mileage may vary. But this works for me and I don't have to wonder if an RO is going to get annoyed by it. One less thing to have on your brain with an unknown RO at a major looking over your shoulder.

 

I personally don't see a reason to hassle shooters for inserting the mag first when the rules don't prohibit it in crystal clear terms. If they mess up and crank a round into T1 while "dry firing" they go home. Simple as that. 

 

...As long as their gun handling is safe.

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[racerba]

9 hours ago, wtturn said:

So from my point of view the issue really hinges on whether the loading process can be "paused" in between inserting mag and racking round into chamber. I think the intent of the rule is clear, which is: don't have finger in trigger guard during the specific acts of inserting mag or racking slide. That's the everyday, commonsense interpretation. The problem is that the official definition contradicts the common sense definition.

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On point!!!

 

You can also argue that the actions are two completely different loading processes...inserting the mag into the gun with the slide forward...thus completed one loading process...then racking the slide is another loading process...

 

That action is no different that if the competitor reloads during a course of fire expecting a round to be chambered and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber...then racking in a round after realizing there was no round in the chamber...

[MAC702]

2 hours ago, racerba said:

...You can also argue that the actions are two completely different loading processes...inserting the mag into the gun with the slide forward...thus completed one loading process...then racking the slide is another loading process...

 

That action is no different that if the competitor reloads during a course of fire expecting a round to be chambered and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber...then racking in a round after realizing there was no round in the chamber...

Exactly how I wanted to put it.

[GrumpyOne]

12 hours ago, wtturn said:

So from my point of view the issue really hinges on whether the loading process can be "paused" in between inserting mag and racking round into chamber. I think the intent of the rule is clear, which is: don't have finger in trigger guard during the specific acts of inserting mag or racking slide. That's the everyday, commonsense interpretation. The problem is that the official definition contradicts the common sense definition.

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It's a moot point. "Make Ready" does not end until the shooter hears (and replies/doesn't reply) to "Are You Ready?"...Everything in between is still "Make Ready", in which the shooter can do whatever they need to or want to do to make ready, barring a safety infraction.

[MAC702]

5 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

It's a moot point. "Make Ready" does not end until the shooter hears (and replies/doesn't reply) to "Are You Ready?"...Everything in between is still "Make Ready", in which the shooter can do whatever they need to or want to do to make ready, barring a safety infraction.

The point is not moot if there are people saying that a dryfire over a loaded magazine is a safety infraction.  While we here are in a good consensus that it is not, we are discussing how to convince those who said it was.

 

I got a loud "Whoa!" last month from some visiting CA shooter who was RO'ing me when I took my allowed sight picture after my gun was loaded to weight.  Then I got a lecture and a debate during the moments I'm trying to get my head into a stage before I run it.  NOT COOL.

 

Where's "WHOA!" in the range commands?

[wtturn]

I sent Troy an email.  I tried to form and condense the arguments in a logical manner.

 

Disagreement arises from the definition of "loading" and whether the loading process can be paused between the insertion of a magazine and the racking of slide into battery.  

The proponents of issuing a DQ under this scenario argue that the definition of loading means that loading begins with the insertion of mag and never ceases until the a round is chambered in battery, thus a DQ for finger in trigger while loading.  

 

Those opposed to issuing DQ argue that "loading" refers to the discrete and separate acts of insertion of mag and racking the slide.  A shooter is permitted to press the trigger in between those discrete and self-contained acts.  The analogy used is "That action is no different that if the competitor reloads during a course of fire expecting a round to be chambered and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber...then racking in a round after realizing there was no round in the chamber..."

 

The argument for DQ creates an apparent contradiction in the definition of "loading" and "loaded firearm".  A gun with a loaded mag and empty chamber is a loaded firearm under the rules, however, under the definition of "loading", that same gun is an uncompleted state of loading because it is not "ready to fire".  Because loaded is a status and loading is an action, it would seem to support the position that the two elements of loading are discrete and distinct and thus there should be no DQ issued.  There is no prohibition against finger in the trigger guard of a loaded gun, only "during loading".

[OPENB]

38 minutes ago, MAC702 said:

The point is not moot if there are people saying that a dryfire over a loaded magazine is a safety infraction.  While we here are in a good consensus that it is not, we are discussing how to convince those who said it was.

 

I got a loud "Whoa!" last month from some visiting CA shooter who was RO'ing me when I took my allowed sight picture after my gun was loaded to weight.  Then I got a lecture and a debate during the moments I'm trying to get my head into a stage before I run it.  NOT COOL.

 

Where's "WHOA!" in the range commands?

"Whoa" is a range command in CA? Shoulda told him "Dude I just wanna run this tasty stage. You're harshin' my buzz."

[teros135]

1 hour ago, OPENB said:

"Whoa" is a range command in CA? Shoulda told him "Dude I just wanna run this tasty stage. You're harshin' my buzz."

 

(I was thinking up an answer to that one when OPENB's came across...just about sums it up.)

[mlm]

Explain something to me. I'm old school 1911 shooter. If the weapon is brought to slide lock, magazine inserted, shooter pulls trigger and lets slide go forward, if weapon has a proper trigger, hammer will stay back and shooter can put safety on. You can actually feel the trigger reset and weapon should not go off.

You, the shooter would be DQed for this at LMR command?

Yes or NO?

IMVHO, if trigger is set right, it will not go off, until you pull trigger again once the slide is forward.

Let me know

Thanks,

Mike

 

[wtturn]

Mike,

 

What you're describing is entirely different than the scenario of concern in this thread.  I think your scenario is pretty clearly distinguishable and you WOULD be considered to be "loading" and would be committing a DQ-able action for having finger in trigger guard during loading.  In fact, you would be explicitly loading by way of pulling the trigger.  

 

That's pretty clearly prohibited.   

[terrydoc]

Mike

How does the slide go forward by pulling the trigger on a 1911?

[PatJones]

Explain something to me. I'm old school 1911 shooter. If the weapon is brought to slide lock, magazine inserted, shooter pulls trigger and lets slide go forward, if weapon has a proper trigger, hammer will stay back and shooter can put safety on. You can actually feel the trigger reset and weapon should not go off.
You, the shooter would be DQed for this at LMR command?
Yes or NO?
IMVHO, if trigger is set right, it will not go off, until you pull trigger again once the slide is forward.
Let me know
Thanks,
Mike
 

What you describe is the reason for this rule. Holding the trigger to the rear while dropping the slide on a 1911 prevents the hammer from following due to an improperly set up trigger. Fix the trigger.

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[OPENB]

He's describing an old Bullseye technique. The slide is dropped via the slide release, while the trigger is held back with the trigger finger. The round is chambered more closely to how the gun would chamber it in the natural firing cycle. Supposed to eliminate the first round flyer. I've not seen that done at a USPSA match. 

[George Jones]

I've seen it done at a Nationals (many years ago).  Finger on the trigger was a bit too slow and the gun went BANG!  DQ!  First stage of the match.

 

Goes to prove that USPSA ain't Bullseye. 

[mlm]

When trigger is set properly, you lock slide to the rear, insert magazine, depress trigger and use slide stop to have slide go forward. If trigger is set properly, the hammer will not follow the slide on LMR and go bang. I am not saying to do this in remedial action during a COF. That would get you a trip to DQ. I am saying to do this at the command of LMR.

Mike 

[wtturn]

Not legal. DQ will issue.

COF begins at make ready.

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