What is Unsafe Gun Handling for a PCC before Make Ready is issued?

[CHA-LEE]

I scrubbed through the rules but can't seem to find a definitive answer to this for PCC. Here is the scenario. PCC shooter comes to the start position of the stage with the muzzle pointed straight up. As soon as the shooter is in the start position he lowers the muzzle straight down range (Safe muzzle direction) then locks the bolt back and starts to pull the chamber flag out. The RO see's this gun handling happen and immediately issues the "Make Ready" command. No infraction is assessed and the stage is shot in a safe manner.

 

The pistol rules clearly define what and when "Unsafe Gun Handling" has taken place before the Make Ready command has been given. But I don't see any rules that define what or when is Unsafe Gun Handling happening for a PCC before the make ready process is given. Is lowering the muzzle to a pointing down range unsafe gun handling? Locking the bolt back with the flag still inserted? Removing the flag? At what point is manipulating the PCC considered unsafe gun handling before the make ready command is issued? 

Edited June 8, 2018 by CHA-LEE

[HoMiE]

I would keep the same muzzle direction and not touch chamber flag or bolt until given “Make Ready” command.

 

Had similar situation when a PCC shooter lowered muzzle and turned on their dot. There was still a couple of people downrange taping so a DQ was issued for unsafe gun handling.

 

[CHA-LEE]

I understand what the logical answer is here of keeping the gun pointed straight up and not touch anything until the Make Ready command is given. This is what happens 99% of the time when I see PCC shooters go through the process. But its a little strange that we don't have a rule that defines when unsafe gun handling has happened. There is a bunch of coverage for what can or can't be done in the PCC Bagging/Unbagging area or normal Safe Area. It also talks about what can or can't be done while transporting the PCC from the bagging area to the stage. But nothing about when the shooter is standing in the start position and they start finger banging their PCC before Make Ready is given. 

[HoMiE]

There is a PCC addendum, rule 5.2.1.6 that says the gun must be muzzle up and flagged from staging area to start position. All other hand guns rules apply, you can’t start fussing with optics or flags until the RO gives MR command. 

 

Can I turn on my dot if I keep the muzzle up? 

Edited June 8, 2018 by HoMiE
Spelling

[davsco]

handgun rules apply where there isn't specific language in pcc rules.  so just like not whipping it out of the holster before make ready, the pcc should be left in the same position as when you left the line at the last stage (vertical and flagged, or bagged).

[Sarge]

50 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

 

 

Can I turn on my dot if I keep the muzzle up? 

Nope. And it’s amazing how many people don’t know that you can’t turn optic on unless in a safe area or under RO supervision.

[CHA-LEE]

I am not sure that 5.2.1.6 really covers this scenario. That rule is talking about transporting the gun to the start position of the stage. In the scenario I described, the PCC has already been "Transported" to the start position and no further "Transporting" is happening. The shooter was standing stationary within the start position of the stage.

[Poppa Bear]

I would classify it under the normal gun handling rules.  If the start is gun unloaded on table we know that unholstering before the MR command is a DQ.  If the PCC shooter were to place their gun on the table before MR it would be the same thing. 

 

I would judge your question as a gun handling DQ for manipulating the gun prior to the MR command just like we would for a shooter to slightly draw their gun out of the holster to test that it is unlocked before the MR command, or check their dot before MR.

[Poppa Bear]

A thought I just had is that 90% plus of our shooters can do everything safely.   So if we relax the rules knowing that their actions would not endanger any other shooters it would set a bad example for the less than 10% who do not know any better and would or could endanger other shooters.

[CHA-LEE]

4 minutes ago, Poppa Bear said:

I would classify it under the normal gun handling rules.  If the start is gun unloaded on table we know that unholstering before the MR command is a DQ.  If the PCC shooter were to place their gun on the table before MR it would be the same thing. 

 

I would judge your question as a gun handling DQ for manipulating the gun prior to the MR command just like we would for a shooter to slightly draw their gun out of the holster to test that it is unlocked before the MR command, or check their dot before MR.

 

Using the definition of pistol gun handling isn't valid because the PCC is never "holstered". The Pistol rules are very clear in when a pistol is "Drawn" to clarify what unsafe gun handling is. Since I PCC is never holstered, or unholstered there is no definitive point within the rules to determine when the firearm is "Drawn". This would be easy is all PCC's were required to come to the line bagged and you couldn't unbag until the Make Ready command is given. But that isn't the case. PCC shooters can come to the line with the gun in hand and muzzle pointed up. Beyond that the rules have no starting point of disallowed gun handling after the shooter is stating stationary within the start position but before the Make Ready command is given. This is the gaping hole that I am trying to understand in how its covered in the rules with regards to PCC.

[Poppa Bear]

It is an area that needs to be addressed because most of us have our own lines where unsafe gun handling starts.  Without a rule it is an RO's judgement, and we khow how we argue those when we have actual rules to judge them against.

[JAFO]

If someone removed their chamber flag prior to MR, I'd consider issuing a DQ under PCC 10.5.2.1.  This is under the assumption that someone is not "under the direct supervision of the RO" until the CoF begins when MR is given. 

 

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of an uncased PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer.

 

Also, it was my understanding that chamber flags were being considered the closest parallel to holsters for PCCs, save from requiring bagged guns all the time.  So pulling a flag is akin to drawing a pistol.

[DKorn]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

Nope. And it’s amazing how many people don’t know that you can’t turn optic on unless in a safe area or under RO supervision.

 

I don’t really understand this rule. I can turn my dot on with my Carry Optics gun as long as I keep it in the holster, but a PCC shooter can’t, even if he keeps it muzzle up with a flag in?

 

That said, it’s in the rules, so I’ll continue to enforce it, or at least warn PCC shooters if I’m not ROing. 

[JAFO]

12 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

I don’t really understand this rule. I can turn my dot on with my Carry Optics gun as long as I keep it in the holster, but a PCC shooter can’t, even if he keeps it muzzle up with a flag in?

 

That said, it’s in the rules, so I’ll continue to enforce it, or at least warn PCC shooters if I’m not ROing. 

 

I would imagine it was for simplicity.  Rather than having to come up with lists of things you can and cannot do, they just limited what's allowed to basic transportation of the PCC to/from the start position.  EVERYTHING else is a DQ.

[Hammer002]

PCC must be carried reasonably upright or slung with an open bolt or flag inserted with bolt closed on flag.  (Bolt must be closed on flag).  May not leave carry position until under supervision of RO.  May not point down range or manipulate gun in any way before make ready command.  If bagged, may not unbag until make ready command.  Nothing pertaining to the condition of gun transported may change until make ready.  And no, you may not manipulate the dot or anything else unless in a safe area or under supervision of an RO.

 

I think I see your dilemma, if you were going to DQ, what rule would be cited and listed to hold up in arbitration.  I can’t quote the numbers off top of my head and not in a position to look them up, but the generic unsafe gun handling would certainly apply if not additional others pertaining to what I mentioned above.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Hammer002

[DKorn]

25 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

I would imagine it was for simplicity.  Rather than having to come up with lists of things you can and cannot do, they just limited what's allowed to basic transportation of the PCC to/from the start position.  EVERYTHING else is a DQ.

 

Still, I don’t think it’s necessary. I think all the other rules already cover it- you have to have it muzzle up or down with a chamber flag in, and you can’t have a magazine in or your finger in the trigger. Who cares about anything else? But I didn’t write the rules, I just have to enforce them and play within them. 

[Bkreutz]

58 minutes ago, JAFO said:

If someone removed their chamber flag prior to MR, I'd consider issuing a DQ under PCC 10.5.2.1.  This is under the assumption that someone is not "under the direct supervision of the RO" until the CoF begins when MR is given. 

 

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of an uncased PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer.

 

Also, it was my understanding that chamber flags were being considered the closest parallel to holsters for PCCs, save from requiring bagged guns all the time.  So pulling a flag is akin to drawing a pistol.

I think this covers what Charlie was bringing up, the key part is "All other gun handling with the PCC"

[HoMiE]

54 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

I don’t really understand this rule. I can turn my dot on with my Carry Optics gun as long as I keep it in the holster, but a PCC shooter can’t, even if he keeps it muzzle up with a flag in?

 

That said, it’s in the rules, so I’ll continue to enforce it, or at least warn PCC shooters if I’m not ROing. 

Having shot in Open division before, I always used to turn on my dot while waking up to start position with pistol in holster and locked. Now, I will just keep PCC muzzle up and not do anything until given MR command. 

[IL-SIG]

1 hour ago, Hammer002 said:

PCC must be carried reasonably upright or slung with an open bolt or flag inserted with bolt closed on flag.  (Bolt must be closed on flag).  May not leave carry position until under supervision of RO.  May not point down range or manipulate gun in any way before make ready command.  If bagged, may not unbag until make ready command.  Nothing pertaining to the condition of gun transported may change until make ready.  And no, you may not manipulate the dot or anything else unless in a safe area or under supervision of an RO.

 

I think I see your dilemma, if you were going to DQ, what rule would be cited and listed to hold up in arbitration.  I can’t quote the numbers off top of my head and not in a position to look them up, but the generic unsafe gun handling would certainly apply if not additional others pertaining to what I mentioned above.

 

Actually, the rules say reasonably vertical, which is not the same as reasonably upright.

 

PCC 5.2.1.3

Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical and a chamber safety flag in place. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

 

PCC 5.2.1.6

Transporting pistol caliber carbines from the staging area to the start position and back to the staging area from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle up or muzzle down with the bolt closed on a chamber safety flag.

[Hammer002]

2 hours ago, IL-SIG said:

 

Actually, the rules say reasonably vertical, which is not the same as reasonably upright.

 

PCC 5.2.1.3

Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical and a chamber safety flag in place. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

 

PCC 5.2.1.6

Transporting pistol caliber carbines from the staging area to the start position and back to the staging area from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle up or muzzle down with the bolt closed on a chamber safety flag.

 

Ur right.  As I admitted, I was going from memory.  Remind me what difference that made to the point again??

[stick]

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of an uncased PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. 

 

This is the rule that covers what you are referencing.  By lowering the gun, he/she is violating this rule.

[CHA-LEE]

I will play devils advocate with 10.5.2.1..... That rule says under the direct supervision of an RO. It says nothing about range commands. So if the shooter is standing in the start position next to the RO they can do whatever they want whenever they want because the RO is “supervising” them?

[Bkreutz]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

I will play devils advocate with 10.5.2.1..... That rule says under the direct supervision of an RO. It says nothing about range commands. So if the shooter is standing in the start position next to the RO they can do whatever they want whenever they want because the RO is “supervising” them?

 

Not any more than if a pistol shooter draws his gun before "Make Ready", and is standing next to the RO in the shooting box. (I'll play the other side)

[GOF]

RE: handgun shooters. Is there anything wrong with the RO reminding new shooters about the 'Register' position of the trigger finger when holstering the gun?

[Bkreutz]

1 hour ago, GOF said:

RE: handgun shooters. Is there anything wrong with the RO reminding new shooters about the 'Register' position of the trigger finger when holstering the gun?

 

I would say yes because the range commands are standard worldwide, to some foreign shooters they are the only English they understand. If you start adding words it can be confusing. I think any admonishing has to take place before "Make Ready"