nikdanja Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 How high or low does the hit factor have to be to send a make up after a called Charlie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansedgli Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I wouldnt do it shooting minor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennJeep1618 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, dansedgli said: I wouldnt do it shooting minor... Same, unless I thought it may be a Delta and I was still in a position to easily make it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B585 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 According to the math, assuning you could make it up in .2 seconds and are shooting minor, a HF above 10. Realistically almost never. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Personally, I won’t make up a called close charlie, but will make up a called wide charlie since it could be a delta. But I’m shooting minor. Mathematically, we should be able to work out the needed hit factor for it to be “worth it”. I’ll throw together a formula later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 HF before makeup = total points / total time HF with makeup = (points + 1) / (time + x) where x is how long it takes to make up the shot, including the time to decide to do the makeup. For it it to be worth it, we need: (points + 1) / (time + x) > points / time time * (points + 1) > points * (time + x) time*points + time > points*time + points*x time > points*x time/points > x 1/HF > x So the amount of time needed for the make up must be less than 1 divided by the original hit factor. For example, on a 10 hit factor stage, you would need to do the makeup in less than .1 seconds. On a 4 hit factor stage, you could take up to .25 seconds to do the makeup and still improve your hit factor. We could actually expand this to a more general case for making up anything: (points + y) / (time + x) > points / time where y is the number of points added due to makeups. This is simplified to: time * (points + y) > points * (time + x) time*points + time*y > points*time + points*x time*y > points*x time/points > x/y 1/HF > x/y y/x > HF Basically, in the general case, the hit factor of the makeups alone must be higher than the original hit factor for it to be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Only time I'd even think about trying it would be at The Last Target of the stage when I KNEW I couldn't run out of ammo, necessitating a standing reload Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 shooting minor, I would never make up a "C" remember USPSA utilizes hit factor for scoring. Firing off another round in the hopes of making up the "C" won't help your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I would not do it shooting either major or minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremiahD Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 In major? No way. Alpha/Charlie on a target is %90 If you're shooting %90 and doing everything else as fast as humanly possible, you're good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxj66 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 My general rule is if I am sure the hits on paper I don't make it up. I cant see making a Charlie ever being worth it. Even a Delta would be iffy to be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjones6686 Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 No way I'd make up a C when I primarily shoot Single Stack Major unless it was the very last target on the stage. I couldn't justify all the slide lock reloads that would kill my time even more. I'm sure 95% of all shooters wouldn't even attempt to make up a C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B585 Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 On 5/17/2018 at 8:53 AM, DKorn said: HF before makeup = total points / total time HF with makeup = (points + 1) / (time + x) where x is how long it takes to make up the shot, including the time to decide to do the makeup. For it it to be worth it, we need: (points + 1) / (time + x) > points / time time * (points + 1) > points * (time + x) time*points + time > points*time + points*x time > points*x time/points > x 1/HF > x So the amount of time needed for the make up must be less than 1 divided by the original hit factor. For example, on a 10 hit factor stage, you would need to do the makeup in less than .1 seconds. On a 4 hit factor stage, you could take up to .25 seconds to do the makeup and still improve your hit factor. We could actually expand this to a more general case for making up anything: (points + y) / (time + x) > points / time where y is the number of points added due to makeups. This is simplified to: time * (points + y) > points * (time + x) time*points + time*y > points*time + points*x time*y > points*x time/points > x/y 1/HF > x/y y/x > HF Basically, in the general case, the hit factor of the makeups alone must be higher than the original hit factor for it to be worth it. I think we are saying the same thing but approaching it differently... With a HF of 10, you are earning 1 point per .1 seconds. If shooting minor, a Charlie to Alpha would be 2 points made up. You would need the split to be .2 just to break even. If the split was less than .2, you would increase your HF. As you said with a HF of 4, you are earning 1 point per .25 seconds so if you could make it up in less than .5 seconds you would be ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 10 minutes ago, B585 said: I think we are saying the same thing but approaching it differently... With a HF of 10, you are earning 1 point per .1 seconds. If shooting minor, a Charlie to Alpha would be 2 points made up. You would need the split to be .2 just to break even. If the split was less than .2, you would increase your HF. As you said with a HF of 4, you are earning 1 point per .25 seconds so if you could make it up in less than .5 seconds you would be ahead. Exactly. All I did was break the math down to confirm in detail what everyone else is doing. The main reason I chose to do it this way is that it applies across the board - for instance, you could calculate whether it’s worth it to make a reload to make up a missed piece of steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 There was an older adage that went along the lines of 'you should be shooting 90-95% of the total points.' I saw Taran come in second at the Desert Classic shooting minor and focusing on points. He lost by something like 5 points-I think. I think NIl's dad told me he only dropped a total of 8 points in his first Nationals win. TGO has a YouTube for Action Targets-1...10 shots with a three second par time. You might find it interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, pjb45 said: I think NIl's dad told me he only dropped a total of 8 points in his first Nationals win. I scoffed when I saw this. Just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I checked. He dropped 138 points in 2010. And that is before penalties, of which there were many. The circumstances required for it to be logical to make up a C are so extreme that one should basically assume it is never worthwhile to do. I wouldn't even consider it unless the HHF for the stage is way under 5. I've seen maybe 2 stages with a HHF that low in 20 years. Edited May 20, 2018 by Jake Di Vita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Nice catch. I did not check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, pjb45 said: Nice catch. I did not check. Particularly back then, Nils has often been the “drop more points but outrun everyone” kind of victor. Edited May 22, 2018 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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