Is it ever logical to make up a “C” when shooting major?

[nikdanja]

How high or low does the hit factor have to be to send a make up after a called Charlie?

[dansedgli]

I wouldnt do it shooting minor...

[TennJeep1618]

10 minutes ago, dansedgli said:

I wouldnt do it shooting minor...

 

Same, unless I thought it may be a Delta and I was still in a position to easily make it up.

[B585]

According to the math, assuning you could make it up in .2 seconds and are shooting minor, a HF above 10.  Realistically almost never.

[DKorn]

Personally, I won’t make up a called close charlie, but will make up a called wide charlie since it could be a delta. But I’m shooting minor. 

 

Mathematically, we should be able to work out the needed hit factor for it to be “worth it”. I’ll throw together a formula later. 

[DKorn]

HF before makeup = total points / total time

 

HF with makeup = (points + 1) / (time + x)

 

where x is how long it takes to make up the shot, including the time to decide to do the makeup. 

 

For it it to be worth it, we need:

 (points + 1) / (time + x) > points / time

 

time * (points + 1) > points * (time + x)

 

time*points + time > points*time + points*x

 

time > points*x

 

time/points > x

 

1/HF > x

 

So the amount of time needed for the make up must be less than 1 divided by the original hit factor. For example, on a 10 hit factor stage, you would need to do the makeup in less than .1 seconds. On a 4 hit factor stage, you could take up to .25 seconds to do the makeup and still improve your hit factor. 

 

 

We could actually expand this to a more general case for making up anything:

 (points + y) / (time + x) > points / time

where y is the number of points added due to makeups. 

 

This is simplified to:

 

time * (points + y) > points * (time + x)

 

time*points + time*y > points*time + points*x

 

time*y > points*x

 

time/points > x/y

 

1/HF > x/y

 

y/x > HF

 

Basically, in the general case, the hit factor of the makeups alone must be higher than the original hit factor for it to be worth it. 

 

 

 

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Only time I'd even think about trying it would be at The Last Target of the

 

stage when I KNEW I couldn't run out of ammo, necessitating a standing

 

reload    

[stick]

shooting minor, I would never make up a "C"  remember USPSA utilizes hit factor for scoring.  Firing off another round in the hopes of making up the "C" won't help your time.

[Steve RA]

I would not do it shooting either major or minor.

[JeremiahD]

In major?  No way.

Alpha/Charlie on a target is %90

If you're shooting %90 and doing everything else as fast as humanly possible, you're good.

[Foxj66]

My general rule is if I am sure the hits on paper I don't make it up. I cant see making a Charlie ever being worth it. Even a Delta would be iffy to be worth it.

[bjones6686]

No way I'd make up a C when I primarily shoot Single Stack Major unless it was the very last target on the stage. I couldn't justify all the slide lock reloads that would kill my time even more. I'm sure 95% of all shooters wouldn't even attempt to make up a C.

[B585]

On 5/17/2018 at 8:53 AM, DKorn said:

HF before makeup = total points / total time

 

HF with makeup = (points + 1) / (time + x)

 

where x is how long it takes to make up the shot, including the time to decide to do the makeup. 

 

For it it to be worth it, we need:

 (points + 1) / (time + x) > points / time

 

time * (points + 1) > points * (time + x)

 

time*points + time > points*time + points*x

 

time > points*x

 

time/points > x

 

1/HF > x

 

So the amount of time needed for the make up must be less than 1 divided by the original hit factor. For example, on a 10 hit factor stage, you would need to do the makeup in less than .1 seconds. On a 4 hit factor stage, you could take up to .25 seconds to do the makeup and still improve your hit factor. 

 

 

We could actually expand this to a more general case for making up anything:

 (points + y) / (time + x) > points / time

where y is the number of points added due to makeups. 

 

This is simplified to:

 

time * (points + y) > points * (time + x)

 

time*points + time*y > points*time + points*x

 

time*y > points*x

 

time/points > x/y

 

1/HF > x/y

 

y/x > HF

 

Basically, in the general case, the hit factor of the makeups alone must be higher than the original hit factor for it to be worth it. 

 

 

 

 

I think we are saying the same thing but approaching it differently...

With a HF of 10, you are earning 1 point per .1 seconds.  If shooting minor, a Charlie to Alpha would be 2 points made up.  You would need the split to be .2 just to break even.  If the split was less than .2, you would increase your HF.  As you said with a HF of 4, you are earning 1 point per .25 seconds so if you could make it up in less than .5 seconds you would be ahead.

[DKorn]

10 minutes ago, B585 said:

I think we are saying the same thing but approaching it differently...

With a HF of 10, you are earning 1 point per .1 seconds.  If shooting minor, a Charlie to Alpha would be 2 points made up.  You would need the split to be .2 just to break even.  If the split was less than .2, you would increase your HF.  As you said with a HF of 4, you are earning 1 point per .25 seconds so if you could make it up in less than .5 seconds you would be ahead.

 

Exactly. All I did was break the math down to confirm in detail what everyone else is doing. The main reason I chose to do it this way is that it applies across the board - for instance, you could calculate whether it’s worth it to make a reload to make up a missed piece of steel. 

[pjb45]

There was an older adage that went along the lines of 'you should be shooting 90-95% of the total points.'

 

I saw Taran come in second at the Desert Classic shooting minor and focusing on points.  He lost by something like 5 points-I think. 

I think NIl's dad told me he only dropped a total of 8 points in his first Nationals win.

TGO has a YouTube for Action Targets-1...10 shots with a three second par time.  You might find it interesting.

[Jake Di Vita]

25 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

I think NIl's dad told me he only dropped a total of 8 points in his first Nationals win.

 

I scoffed when I saw this. Just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I checked. He dropped 138 points in 2010. And that is before penalties, of which there were many.

 

The circumstances required for it to be logical to make up a C are so extreme that one should basically assume it is never worthwhile to do. I wouldn't even consider it unless the HHF for the stage is way under 5. I've seen maybe 2 stages with a HHF that low in 20 years.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Jake Di Vita

[pjb45]

Nice catch.  I did not check.

 

[MemphisMechanic]

14 hours ago, pjb45 said:

Nice catch.  I did not check.

 

 

Particularly back then, Nils has often been the “drop more points but outrun everyone” kind of victor.

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by MemphisMechanic