USPSA range commands and an AD

[Gary Stevens]

5 minutes ago, rooster said:

I believe there is no recourse on a safety call.  

 

Read my post four up the page.

[rooster]

I believe there is no recourse on a safety call.  

[rooster]

12 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Read my post four up the page.

 

[rooster]

Sorry missed that one.

[GeneBray]

Wading in late on this discussion.  Busy day.  First, I hope the original poster was paraphrasing the range command when he wrote, " if clear drop hammer and holster."  Next, the range command, "If you are finished, unload and show clear" is not a question it is a command, albeit conditional, to perform specific tasks if you completed the COF.  Likewise, "If clear, hammer down, holster" is also a conditional command not a question.  If my understanding of the incident is correct the command ICHDH was started and not completed before the shot was fired.  Therefore, the command was not completed.  If the command was not completed then the competitor near gets to the point of "after this command..." so the competitor may still engage a target or targets.  (Side point, we've all heard ROs issue the ICHDH command, "If clear, hammer down, ... {pause  waiting for hammer to drop before completing the command, and finally} ..., holster."  Bad way to issue the command in my opinion.  Give the complete command clearly, distinctly, and in a normal cadence, do not wait for the competitor to drop the hammer, before saying "holster."} Back to the main discussion.... The shot failed to meet any of the conditions of an AD.  Unlike unsafe gun handling which has a catch all of "Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to", ADs are specifically defined in the rules.  This is a case where the discharge may well be accidental, but the act of discharging the firearm fails to meet the criteria for an AD.  The glossary defines unloading and the competitor's actions, as reported, do not meet the definition of unloading since removal of ammunition from the firearm was not accomplished or attempted -- never removed the magazine although the competitor did eject a round.  The proper action by the ROs, in my opinion,  would be to issue the IFUASC command again, and after the competitor complies issue ICHDH command.  Check the timer to see if an accurate determination can be made on the competitors time for the COF.  If a time for the COF can be determined, score the stage.  If not, a reshoot.  There are ADs that do not meet the match disqualification criteria of an AD.  Now to the hard part of the issue.  As described, is/are the competitor's action(s) unsafe gun handling?  The competitor is clearly handling the fire arm.  Was the discharge intentional, accidental, and/or unsafe?  If the shot was in the general direction of a target(s), whether aimed with a sight picture, or point shot, then it is virtually impossible for the ROs to support the call the shot was accidental.  Body language and shooter reaction is a strong clue, but certainly not conclusive.  And, making a call based on shooter reaction is not supported anywhere in the rules.  Lastly, for illustration lets say the shooter was facing downrange and there were no targets visible, or even anywhere close to the direction the firearm was discharged, the ROs could legitimately make the call the shot was an AD because it was not in the direction of a target.  However, the ROs must be able to support the call using the USGH under the "...include, but not limited to" provision of 10.5.  The RM may or may not uphold the call.  Likewise, it the call eventually goes to arbitration.  Welcome to the gray areas in the rules......

20140201_Handgun_Rules (dragged).pdf

[Thomas H]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:21 AM, motosapiens said:

 

I'm only going to call a dq if you clearly begin the ULSC process and then negligently fire a shot. It is not difficult to tell whether you intended to fire the shot or it was an ND. 

 

The thing is, "negligently fire a shot" isn't considered an unsafe act in the rules UNLESS certain other criteria are met.

 

Hit within 10 feet?  Over the berm?  Anything else from 10.4?  No?

Then whether the person meant  to fire a shot or not, it isn't an unsafe act.  Plenty of people let one off early when entering a position, and maybe it luckily goes into a target, or right past one. We don't DQ them for that, because "negligently fire a shot" isn't a DQ offense by itself. 

 

And that's the problem with giving a DQ to someone who points the firearm in a safe direction and deliberately pulls the trigger while performing no other action on the gun prior to the "if clear, hammer down and holster" command.  That exact same set of actions is not considered unsafe by you under one set of circumstances, and as such, it can't be unsafe under any other.  (Safe direction, deliberate pull, no other action on the gun.  "Negligent" isn't a criteria in 10.4.)

 

Since 10.4 defines accidental discharges as meeting certain criteria (since "negligent" appears nowhere in the rules), then if a shot does not meet those criteria, it isn't an accidental discharge.

 

Pointing the firearm in a safe direction and deliberately pulling the trigger while performing no other action on the gun is not an unsafe set of actions.  Calling it a "negligent discharge" might be semantically correct if the person didn't know it was going to fire, but that is meaningless in USPSA.  And it isn't an accidental discharge, because the exact same set of actions are legal (according to you) if someone decides to fire a last shot at a target---so it can't be in the middle of unloading.

 

I get that the person is firing when they don't mean to, and so people are wanting to DQ them for being unsafe.  And yet....the rules don't DQ people for firing shots when they don't mean to do so.  They only do it if shots meet certain other criteria.

 

(And if you aren't messing with the gun, then you aren't in the middle of unloading.)

[jcc7x7]

There are a couple of these "questions" on the recertification exam. I just finished it . 

Per the recertification exam it's a . DQ. Unsafe gun handling.

Do what you will with this information.

[motosapiens]

8 hours ago, Thomas H said:

I get that the person is firing when they don't mean to, and so people are wanting to DQ them for being unsafe.  And yet....the rules don't DQ people for firing shots when they don't mean to do so.  They only do it if shots meet certain other criteria.

 

(And if you aren't messing with the gun, then you aren't in the middle of unloading.)

 

Troy and I agree that in the described situation, the shooter is still in the middle of the unloading process. If you don't agree, I'm cool with that. Call it the way you think is right. I'll call it the way DNROI thinks is right. No real need to keep typing the safe stuff we typed last fall over and over and over.

[DKorn]

I have a related question:

 

Let’s say, hyopothetically, that a shooter decides that he isn’t finished shooting, but the RO for some reason prematurely gives the “If clear...” command. As the shooter, what do you do? Obviously, if you fire a shot you are DQ’d, but you also aren’t done shooting. What’s your best course of action in this scenario?

 

As the RO, what do you do if you give the command prematurely, but the shooter brings up the fact that he wanted to keep shooting?

 

Obviously, the best thing all around to prevent this as the RO is to avoid giving the “If clear...” command until the shooter is holding the gun with magazine removed and slide back. 

[Sarge]

17 minutes ago, DKorn said:

I have a related question:

 

Let’s say, hyopothetically, that a shooter decides that he isn’t finished shooting, but the RO for some reason prematurely gives the “If clear...” command. As the shooter, what do you do? Obviously, if you fire a shot you are DQ’d, but you also aren’t done shooting. What’s your best course of action in this scenario?

 

As the RO, what do you do if you give the command prematurely, but the shooter brings up the fact that he wanted to keep shooting?

 

Obviously, the best thing all around to prevent this as the RO is to avoid giving the “If clear...” command until the shooter is holding the gun with magazine removed and slide back. 

If the shooter presents a clear chamber you would not be premature in proceeding with If clear....... He is done at that point anyway because it would have been several seconds since he fired the last shot. Wouldn't be worth it.

[Youngeyes]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:42 PM, GeneBray said:

Wading in late on this discussion.  Busy day.  First, I hope the original poster was paraphrasing the range command when he wrote, " if clear drop hammer and holster."  Yes I was

 

(Side point, we've all heard ROs issue the ICHDH command, "If clear, hammer down, ... {pause  waiting for hammer to drop before completing the command, and finally} ..., holster."  Bad way to issue the command in my opinion.

I never thought about this but a lot of ROs do seem to hesitate to issue the holster command until you have dropped the hammer. Or maybe they just draw out the "and" part of "and holster". Why is that a bad idea?

 

 

[GeneBray]

 

After the command the competitor may not discharge the firearm. 8.3.7. After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3).

 

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

 

Solves the problem we are discussing because the call is cut and dried. However, it is extremely hard to issue ICHDH before the competitor pulls the trigger as originally described in the thread.

 

Correction. Make impossible to issue ICHDH since the shooter never presented the firearm to the RO to check for an empty chamber.

 

8.3.6. IYAFUASC. If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty.

 

 

 

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[GeneBray]

I am having difficulty in understanding how the competitor was unloading the firearm (from the USPSA rules glossary -- "Unloading ... The removal of ammunition from a firearm.  This action is completed when the firearm is empty of all ammunition and the magazine removed or cylinder opened and shown for inspection by a Range Officer."  A round was ejected from the firearm.  The magazine was not removed. So, how is the competitor unloading since the ammunition was not removed from the firearm?  For semi autos, the magazine must be removed then the slide cycled to eject in round in the chamber to effect an unload of the firearm.  Failure to remove the magazine clearly shows the shooter was not unloading.  8.3.6 amplifies the glossary with the following, "If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty."  I see nothing in the competitor's actions showing the competitor was unloading since the ammunition source (aka, the magazine) was not removed before cycling the slide.

The competitor could legitimately argue, "I thought the slide failed to go into battery so I cycled the slide and point shot at a target.  I missed, but the shot did not hit within 10' of me, did not go over the berm, and was in a safe direction.  Then, I realized too much time had elapsed so it was pointless to take an aimed shot." 

Edited May 5, 2018 by GeneBray
Hit submit too soon.

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, GeneBray said:

The competitor could legitimately argue, "I thought the slide failed to go into battery so I cycled the slide and point shot at a target.  I missed, but the shot did not hit within 10' of me, did not go over the berm, and was in a safe direction.  Then, I realized too much time had elapsed so it was pointless to take an aimed shot." 

 

He could argue that, but in this case the competitor would clearly be a lying weasel. As I have stated before, the difference between an intended shot and one you didn't expect to go off is not subtle at all. Anyone can tell the difference. If it's not clearly obvious, then fine, no dq. Every one I have seen however is MORE than obvious.

Edited May 6, 2018 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

23 hours ago, DKorn said:

I have a related question:

 

Let’s say, hyopothetically, that a shooter decides that he isn’t finished shooting, but the RO for some reason prematurely gives the “If clear...” command. As the shooter, what do you do? Obviously, if you fire a shot you are DQ’d, but you also aren’t done shooting. What’s your best course of action in this scenario?

 

As the RO, what do you do if you give the command prematurely, but the shooter brings up the fact that he wanted to keep shooting?

 

This is a good question. If the shooter already showed the ro an empty chamber and then got the 'if clear HDAH' command, then he is probably out of luck. OTOH, if the shooter is just standing there not firing anymore and the RO gives the 'if clear HDAH', before the shooter has shown an empty chamber, then I think the shooter has a pretty clear cut case of RO interference and a re-shoot.

[Youngeyes]

49 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

This is a good question. If the shooter already showed the ro an empty chamber and then got the 'if clear HDAH' command, then he is probably out of luck. OTOH, if the shooter is just standing there not firing anymore and the RO gives the 'if clear HDAH', before the shooter has shown an empty chamber, then I think the shooter has a pretty clear cut case of RO interference and a re-shoot.

I'm confused.( so what else is new?). When would an RO give the ICHDAH without checking the gun or seeing that the shooter was following his IFULSC command? If the shooter isn't finished he wouldn't unload and show clear no matter what the RO said. Would he?

[DKorn]

7 hours ago, Youngeyes said:

I'm confused.( so what else is new?). When would an RO give the ICHDAH without checking the gun or seeing that the shooter was following his IFULSC command? If the shooter isn't finished he wouldn't unload and show clear no matter what the RO said. Would he?

 

I don’t know why, but I’ve definitely heard a few ROs give the commands as “Ifyouarefinishedunloadandshowclearifclearhammerdownholster” all in one breath. I don’t get it. I always give the “If you are finished, unload and show clear,” then wait for the competition to show me a clear gun with the slide held or locked back before giving the “If clear...” command. If the shooter racks the slide too quickly for me to see that the chamber is empty, I will ask them to show me that the gun is clear before I give the “If clear” command. 

[pjb45]

I found this an interesting definition of the work "IF"

 

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/if

 

We use the Range Commands in our matches.  The key, without determining intent, is the actual actions.  If your are finished, unload, and show clear, IF you are not finished, you do not have to unload and show clear.  You may shoot, stop, pause, .etc.....Until all three conditions of the command are completed the shooter actions is not finished.

 

To quote John Amidon's conversation with me some years ago, it is a WHOOPS, ergo not DQ'able. 

 

I disagree with the intent logic. My friend of sixty some years, who got me started in USPSA and is also a CRO sometimes disagree when the area gets a little grey.  There was a time when a shooter fired a shoot that was questionable.  I could not see the actual action--narrow shooting enclose fit for only one person.  My RO felt it was an AD.  I could not justify it on that rule-it did not meet the conditions.  Unsafe gun handling maybe but again no one had a clear view.  Called the experience MD who was another CRO he concurred with a no violation.  Did he intend on not intend to shoot the shot.  UN-Determinable. 

[motosapiens]

19 hours ago, Youngeyes said:

I'm confused.( so what else is new?). When would an RO give the ICHDAH without checking the gun or seeing that the shooter was following his IFULSC command? If the shooter isn't finished he wouldn't unload and show clear no matter what the RO said. Would he?

an RO shouldn't, but some occasionally do, and sometimes shooters *think* the RO didn't check the gun when the shooter reflexively put it up there before noticing an un-engaged target. The lesson to learn is you don't need to be in a hurry to ULSC. Look around. do a tactical scan. Be an operator (lol). Then go through your tried and true ULSC routine and don't get dq'd. Easy peasy.

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, pjb45 said:

I disagree with the intent logic. My friend of sixty some years, who got me started in USPSA and is also a CRO sometimes disagree when the area gets a little grey.  There was a time when a shooter fired a shoot that was questionable.  I could not see the actual action--narrow shooting enclose fit for only one person.  My RO felt it was an AD.  I could not justify it on that rule-it did not meet the conditions.  Unsafe gun handling maybe but again no one had a clear view.  Called the experience MD who was another CRO he concurred with a no violation.  Did he intend on not intend to shoot the shot.  UN-Determinable. 

Yeah, USPSA rules pretty clearly allow you to have AD's (or 'early shots' in the politically correct terminology). And I'm ok with that. If you are prepping the trigger about to shoot something, and the gun goes off before it is quite on target, it is no big deal. You meant to shoot, it just happened a tenth or so earlier than planned. That is way different from running somewhere with the gun down and having it go off, or having it go off during a reload or transfer, or having it go off after you unloaded and showed clear and went to hammer down. In those situations, you weren't expecting the gun to go off *at all*.

[JAFO]

So the take away from all this would be, "Always perform hammer down aimed at a target and expecting a shot."

[motosapiens]

28 minutes ago, JAFO said:

So the take away from all this would be, "Always perform hammer down aimed at a target and expecting a shot."

 

Not sure that would help. If you got the 'ICHDAH' command you are dq'd no matter if you are aiming or not.

 

My take-away would be 'always perform ULSC with sufficient attention, and if you don't, then just take your dq like a man'.

[JAFO]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

Not sure that would help. If you got the 'ICHDAH' command you are dq'd no matter if you are aiming or not.

 

My take-away would be 'always perform ULSC with sufficient attention, and if you don't, then just take your dq like a man'.

 

There you go, bein' all logical. 

[HickLife]

No offense but I honestly think some of you guys are trying to read into some if this a little too much. Quoting rules and saying it doesn’t specifically say this that or the other (but it does say not limited too, in some cases). It’s pretty simple to me, if the shot was unintentional (not counting the gun going off a split second before you were were you wanted to be on target because you squeezed a little too hard) then thats a dq, its unsafe, even if it was pointed in a safe direction and hit more than 10ft away blah,blah, blah.... If he was trying to unload and show clear racking it even if you did remove the magazine isn’t sufficient enough to clear a gun, there is a reason we visually check (some even physically check with their finger) and have someone confirm it, what if you had a failure to extract? Close the slide pull the trigger boom. I hate seeing all the guys that try to be all gunfu racking the slide real quick, catching the bullet, sending the slide forward, holstering as fast as they can. There is no point in that. Slow down. Be safe. No one wants to leave early, especially if its to go to the hospital.

I say good on that guy for dqing himself, maybe not up and leaving, but I would do the same thing and would be completely ashamed of myself.


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[Sarge]

5 minutes ago, HickLife said:

No offense but I honestly think some of you guys are trying to read into some if this a little too much. Quoting rules and saying it doesn’t specifically say this that or the other (but it does say not limited too, in some cases). It’s pretty simple to me, if the shot was unintentional (not counting the gun going off a split second before you were were you wanted to be on target because you squeezed a little too hard) then thats a dq, its unsafe, even if it was pointed in a safe direction and hit more than 10ft away blah,blah, blah.... If he was trying to unload and show clear racking it even if you did remove the magazine isn’t sufficient enough to clear a gun, there is a reason we visually check (some even physically check with their finger) and have someone confirm it, what if you had a failure to extract? Close the slide pull the trigger boom. I hate seeing all the guys that try to be all gunfu racking the slide real quick, catching the bullet, sending the slide forward, holstering as fast as they can. There is no point in that. Slow down. Be safe. No one wants to leave early, especially if its to go to the hospital.

I say good on that guy for dqing himself, maybe not up and leaving, but I would do the same thing and would be completely ashamed of myself.


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Except we go by a rule book in USPSA. and the rule book does not support your theory on an unintentional shot. In this game there are any number of ways to fire a round unintentionally and not be a DQ.