Consistent movement of gun during recoil

[Blackstone45]

I'm currently at a block in my shooting, caused by an inability to have the sights return to target automatically after recoil without any input from myself. This is crucial to shooting good split times. When I shoot, the gun usually ends up tilted upwards slightly. I use a standard thumbs forwards grip. My grip strength is pretty weak, I struggle to close a #1 CoC gripper, and that's something I'm working on. However, to my knowledge, having the gun recoil back on target has little to do with the strength of the grip, but rather how the gun is gripped.

 

I use a CZ Shadow, which is a pretty big gun. I recently acquired a Sig P210 which is a bit smaller, and found the recoil more consistent on that. My hands aren't exactly small, so I don't think it's a physical limitation. Does anyone have any suggestions or idea as to what I'm doing wrong?

[sfinney]

What weight recoil spring are you using?

A stronger/proper grip on the gun (obviously) would help. Post a pic of your 2 handed grip?

[IHAVEGAS]

If you have Enos's book he talks about this a bit on page 43, I just fiddled with my grip until I found something that worked. 

[Blackstone45]

12 minutes ago, sfinney said:

What weight recoil spring are you using?

A stronger/proper grip on the gun (obviously) would help. Post a pic of your 2 handed grip?

I'm using a DPM triple recoil spring (https://dpmsystems.com/)

I'll try and get a picture of my grip tomorrow.

 

7 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

If you have Enos's book he talks about this a bit on page 43, I just fiddled with my grip until I found something that worked. 

I'll read that section again, thanks.

[PatJones]

I'm using a DPM triple recoil spring (https://dpmsystems.com/)

Why? Pistols typically function better with standard springs in them. You're slowing down the slide before it hits the frame, just as you need that slide velocity to eject the spent case. It could also be contributing to the sight tracking weirdness you describe above.

[Blackstone45]

2 minutes ago, PatJones said:

Why? Pistols typically function better with standard springs in them. You're slowing down the slide before it hits the frame, just as you need that slide velocity to eject the spent case. It could also be contributing to the sight tracking weirdness you describe above.

 

Sorry, but the latter half of that doesn't make sense. The heavier recoil spring should reduce recoil by preventing the slide moving fully to the rear. So I don't understand why this could cause the sight tracking problem.

 

I haven't had any malfunctions since installing the springs, they have functioned perfectly in my gun.

[hitman_usmc]

Incorrect.  A heavier spring does slow the slide down but springs work both ways.  A 10lbs spring being compressed also pushed back into your hand with 10lbs of force from the spring itself.  Add reciprocating mass and the recoil from the round going off and it can add up quick.  Many people try to lighten the slides to lower the reciprocating mass and run the lightest spring possible that will reliably run the gun.  This provides a flatter shooting gun than a heavier spring.  

[Blackstone45]

6 minutes ago, hitman_usmc said:

Incorrect.  A heavier spring does slow the slide down but springs work both ways.  A 10lbs spring being compressed also pushed back into your hand with 10lbs of force from the spring itself.  Add reciprocating mass and the recoil from the round going off and it can add up quick.  Many people try to lighten the slides to lower the reciprocating mass and run the lightest spring possible that will reliably run the gun.  This provides a flatter shooting gun than a heavier spring.  

Oh wow, looks like I got it completely wrong. Will change the springs back to the factory ones and see what happens during my next range trip. Thanks for the info.

[hitman_usmc]

No problem.  Hope it helps you out.  

[Hi-Power Jack]

Most competitive shooters (I believe) use Lighter springs than come from the factory.

 

You can't go too light, of course, or the gun won't function properly, but few pounds lighter

seems to make the recoil bounce a little better     

[himurax13]

I would take the DPMS and toss it over my shoulder and install a CGW SP01 guide rod and the yellow 11# recoil spring.

I can assure you that your gun will track for you quite a bit faster and more consistently.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

[obsessiveshooter]

Factory spring will still be too heavy with 130pf-ish ammo. Seriously, get a 10lb recoil spring.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[Blackstone45]

I'm not at the stage where I reload ammo yet, so it's all factory 124g for me at the moment. My understanding is that the factory Shadow springs at 16lbs. But when I bought the gun, it had already been tuned by its previous owner. It came with two springs, and unfortunately I don't know their weights

 

Can't order from CGW as I'm based in the UK (in a region that permits handguns for target shooting).

Edited April 15, 2018 by Blackstone45

[John92awd]

if in uk, the ipsc store in estonia can supply you with what you need

[Blackstone45]

On 15/04/2018 at 2:00 AM, himurax13 said:

I would take the DPMS and toss it over my shoulder and install a CGW SP01 guide rod and the yellow 11# recoil spring.

I can assure you that your gun will track for you quite a bit faster and more consistently.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
 

If I'm going to be shooting a mix of 9mm factory ammo, would the 11lb spring be best for this?

As for the guide rod, one of these things? http://www.ipscstore.eu/en/cz-75-sp-01/2052-13-015239-cz-recoil-spring-guide-rod-steel-for-cz-75-sp-01-shadow-new-design-2000000020525.html

[himurax13]

Yes and yes.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

[Blackstone45]

Doesn't having a really heavy recoil spring cause the gun to dip after recoil? The issue I'm currently having is that the gun tends not to come all the way down after recoil. 

[CHA-LEE]

I hate to be the barer of bad news but if you grip the gun without enough pressure and its flopping around within your hands like a fish, then swapping springs isn't going to make much of a consistent difference.

 

The best way to troubleshoot these kind of issues is to take slow motion video from the side as you shoot so you can see how and where the gun is moving during recoil. If it shows stationary hands with the gun moving and shifting within your stationary hands, then swapping springs isn't going to make much of any difference. Swapping springs really doesn't start to change the gun movement until the gun is held hard enough that its not shifting around within your hands.

Edited April 16, 2018 by CHA-LEE

[Shadyscott999]

A solid grip is 99% of the battle for recoil control and tracking the sights.  Get to work with those CoC.  

 

[MemphisMechanic]

On 4/14/2018 at 3:52 PM, Blackstone45 said:

Oh wow, looks like I got it completely wrong. Will change the springs back to the factory ones and see what happens during my next range trip. Thanks for the info.

 

What actually makes a gun shoot flat is the opposite of what logic would dictate...

 

The heaviest bullet, the fastest burning powder, and the lightest recoil spring are your friends. 

 

Trust us. We’ve all experimented for competitions and these ARE the way to go.

 

In a striker-fired gun such as the Glock, M&P or Walther Q5 it’s common to replace the 17lb factory spring with an 11 or 13. I prefer 13s.

 

In a hammer-fired gun you get to go considerably lighter because the slide is also decelerated while compressing the hammer spring in order to cock the hammer... In my Tafoglio Stock 3 which is you gun’s twin brother I ran an 8-9 pound spring. For nothing but lighter factory ammo, I’d run a 10lb spring.

 

I wouldn’t worry about going back up to factory unless you start feeding it really hot NATO machine gun ammo or hundreds of round of +P 115s.

[tanks]

In addition to grip, you need to cam your wrist so the gun comes back. Here is a link to a 60 second video that explains it all:

 

https://www.tacticalperformancecenter.com/blogs/the-dump-pouch/video-rock-solid-handgun-grip

[Doublehelix]

33 minutes ago, tanks said:

In addition to grip, you need to cam your wrist so the gun comes back. Here is a link to a 60 second video that explains it all:

 

https://www.tacticalperformancecenter.com/blogs/the-dump-pouch/video-rock-solid-handgun-grip

Dang. That was some nice shooting. 2 holes right next to each other without even trying.

[Hi-Power Jack]

3 hours ago, Doublehelix said:

Dang. That was some nice shooting. 2 holes right next to each other without even trying.

 

That's nothing    

 

I frequently get two bullets in the same hole - can't even tell

there's two holes with a measuring device    

[PatJones]

 
That's nothing    
 
I frequently get two bullets in the same hole - can't even tell
there's two holes with a measuring device    

I did that too, just this weekend.

[Blackstone45]

I do cam my wrist, but have eased off it slightly in favour of tilting both hands inwards towards the gun. Might be a matter of my wrist/arm strength in my support hand, as I have difficulty camming it as well as applying pressure inwards and squeezing hard.