threat Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 I've been thinking about this for awhile in regards to the rule below. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. If a decocking lever is installed and used, the term fully decocked is the position where the hammer rests once the decocking lever has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed. Manually decocked hammers must be fully down. Manually decocked guns should be allowed to go to half cock for 3 reasons. 1. Consistency of hammer position between decocker and safety models (e.g. CZ SP01 Shadow vs CZ SP01 Tactical) 2. Manually decocking to a half cock notch is safer and easier for shooters to accomplish 3. Will give shooters with short fingers the ability to safely and effectively pull long DA triggers. It makes sense, let's make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 1 Fully down is consistent 2 I haven't heard of people lighting off a lot of rounds at make ready, seems to be a solution to a nonexistent problem 3 People with short fingers can choose a different model of gun, no one forces them to shoot a gun with an extremely long trigger reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtturn Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Seems pretty retarded to me, but your target demographic is Troy and the BoD, so you'll likely get your wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 "Let's change the rules to suit me." No problems here to fix. Everybody knows how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) Won't happen. Learn how to do it. Put your thumb between the slide and hammer, drop hammer on thumb, rotate thumb slowly out of frame. Simple. Not that hard. Dicking around with half cock is asking for trouble. Edited February 16, 2018 by zombywoof Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
threat Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 3 hours ago, RJH said: 1 Fully down is consistent No it is not. A SP01 Shadow Manually decocked will have the hammer in a different position than an SP01 Tactical after using a decocker. Guns with a decocker lever can have the hammer lowered to half cock. That is not consistent. 3 hours ago, zombywoof said: Won't happen. Learn how to do it. Put your thumb between the slide and hammer, drop hammer on thumb, rotate thumb slowly out of frame. Simple. Not that hard. Dicking around with half cock is asking for trouble. I know how to manually decock my gun. I'm saying forcing people to go to fully hammer down is more error prone than people simply blocking the hammer, then pulling the trigger to drop to half cock. Forcing people to put the hammer fully down (for no good reason other than "that's just the way it is") is not as safe as dropping to half cock. 3 hours ago, wtturn said: Seems pretty retarded to me, but your target demographic is Troy and the BoD, so you'll likely get your wish. What is retarded about a change to an arbitrary rule that is safer, more consistent, and make's the trigger pull better. Or do you just not have anything of substance to add to the discussion 3 hours ago, teros135 said: "Let's change the rules to suit me." No problems here to fix. Everybody knows how to do it. The lack of a problem does not mean improvements can't be made.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) . Edited February 17, 2018 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Read the rule again....They aren't cheating. The default position for decocker guns is where the decocker puts the hammer. With a CZ, that is half cock. The rules says decocker guns MUST use the decocker. No dog in the OP fight, cause I don't think there is that much difference in it overall. But I see his reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, OPENB said: Read the rule again....They aren't cheating. The default position for decocker guns is where the decocker puts the hammer. With a CZ, that is half cock. The rules says decocker guns MUST use the decocker. No dog in the OP fight, cause I don't think there is that much difference in it overall. But I see his reasoning. I thought I was wrong but Production Appendix D4 age 85 says : Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at he start signal. I knew I had read that before. Where are you seeing the contradictory rule? 1 hour ago, threat said: No it is not. A SP01 Shadow Manually decocked will have the hammer in a different position than an SP01 Tactical after using a decocker. Guns with a decocker lever can have the hammer lowered to half cock. That is not consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronicTwitch Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Do all DA/SA guns have a half cock position in their hammer hooks? I know CZ does but I'm not familiar with others (Tangfo, Beretta, etc)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 No it is not. A SP01 Shadow Manually decocked will have the hammer in a different position than an SP01 Tactical after using a decocker. Guns with a decocker lever can have the hammer lowered to half cock. That is not consistent.You are always free to shoot the de-cocker model.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Do all DA/SA guns have a half cock position in their hammer hooks? I know CZ does but I'm not familiar with others (Tangfo, Beretta, etc)?While someone will probably point one out, I can't think of any common hammer fired guns that don't have a half cock notch. The primary purpose of the half cock is to catch the hammer if the sear slips out of the full cock notch. It keeps the gun safe in the case of a malfunction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtturn Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 I would love to hear a cogent argument on how manually lowering a hammer to half cock is equally safe, or safer than manually lowering a hammer all the way down.I'd also like an explanation on how drawing and manipulating the gun at half cock is equally safe, or safer than if the gun were fully decocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rjracing Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 I 100% agree with the OP here... trying to get a hammer all the way down on a gun without a decocker isn’t exactly the most safe thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
threat Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 hour ago, wtturn said: I would love to hear a cogent argument on how manually lowering a hammer to half cock is equally safe, or safer than manually lowering a hammer all the way down. When dropping to half cock your finger does not have to remain connected to the trigger as you release your thumb. This is not true for dropping to full hammer down. I can make a video if needed. 1 hour ago, wtturn said: I'd also like an explanation on how drawing and manipulating the gun at half cock is equally safe, or safer than if the gun were fully decocked. It is equally safe because the trigger still cocks and releases the hammer with a longer and heavier pull that SA mode. Once again reference the DA half cock pull on a CZ SPO1 Tactical or CZ P09. Both of those guns are production legal when dropped to half cock, and there is nothing unsafe about those trigger pulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
threat Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 hour ago, PatJones said: You are always free to shoot the de-cocker model.... That doesn't do anything to address inconsistencies between the de-cocker and safety lever models for RO calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 5 hours ago, threat said: That doesn't do anything to address inconsistencies between the de-cocker and safety lever models for RO calls. I still don't understand how one would think starting in production with a gun on half cock isn't breaking the rules and a bump to open. Read page 85 of the rule book, it specifically states that hammers must be fully decocked. Half cock is NOT fully decocked, so there seems to be no inconsistency in the rules, maybe just a lack of following the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 DNROI made a ruling on this, hammer has to be all the way down, or it is a bump to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Even if an AD occurs while manually decocking at LAMR it is not inherently unsafe as the gun is pointed in a safe directions anyway.If somebody can’t even do that properly then they need to rethink their involvement in the sport.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCTaylor Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Damn princess OP. Do you want some itch cream? Who cares about the hammer position. It just doesn’t matter, at all, in any situation. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ngodwetrust21 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 I think de-cock is just fine the way it is. Time to wrap up de-cock conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Matt1 said: Even if an AD occurs while manually decocking at LAMR it is not inherently unsafe as the gun is pointed in a safe directions anyway. If somebody can’t even do that properly then they need to rethink their involvement in the sport. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Important point I think. The only risk is a dq, the only person at risk of a dq is the shooter. I have been at a match where a shooter dq'd himself that way, it does happen but it is not unsafe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 12 hours ago, RJH said: I thought I was wrong but Production Appendix D4 age 85 says : Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at he start signal. I knew I had read that before. Where are you seeing the contradictory rule? The rules tab, then USPSA Rulings. 7th item down is "Decockers at half cock" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 /when was the last time you saw someone lighting a round off at make ready while lowering the hammer manually? You’re trying to come up a solution for something that doesn’t exist. Decock the gun. If its a disadvantage for you to shoot a gun with a decocker shoot something else. JFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 8 hours ago, OPENB said: The rules tab, then USPSA Rulings. 7th item down is "Decockers at half cock" Haha, yet another ruling that goes against the plain English of the rule book. Oh well, I guess me and the rule book was wrong :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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