Allowing pistol change at match

[mont1120]

I am moving to CO this year, and had a ruling question on back guns at major matches. A few years back I needed to go to my back up gun at a major match, but that was a .45 L10 to a .45 L10 frame gun in 1911.

 

Right now I plan on competing with a Glock MOS 34, but for arguments sake, the trigger breaks in half or whatever major issue could arise, and I come to you as the match RM and ask for a ruling for my back up gun, and whether or not it is acceptable. Right now my back up gun to the Glock is a .40 XDm 5.25 pistol with a sight mount red dot. Would this be considered a legal switch, or ruled to be ineligible to use?

 

If it is not legal, why not? Both are striker fired. (assume for this thread an XDm is striker fired), the big difference would be the caliber. In my mind, there is no significant difference in the 9MM minor round or a .40 minor round. PF is PF. Certainly a Glock firing system is different then the XDm. Are there rules which define what is or is not acceptable differences?

[Sarge]

Read 5.1.7 in the rule book. It explains everything in detail

[MikeBurgess]

I would say you would be fine, your replacement gun is not providing a competitive advantage over the primary one. The rule is written as it is so a shooter does not shoot a 50yd standards stage with a long heavy gun then change for a lighter easier to index gun for a fast stage with lots of transitions. In your case you would be swapping from a plastic gun with a dot to a plastic gun with a dot. it would be very hard for someone to have a issue with that.

 

 

[Gary Stevens]

Simple answer, if your back up gun is legal for the Division then it is ok.

[BlueBulletBeaker]

1 hour ago, Gary Stevens said:

Simple answer, if your back up gun is legal for the Division then it is ok.

^^^This

[StealthyBlagga]

It's up to the RM at that particular match, but I can't imagine most would object in the scenario you give. Of course, make sure you ASK first... swapping guns without RM permission is a DQ offense.

[Hi-Power Jack]

5 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 swapping guns without RM permission is a DQ.

 

Good to know    

 

I've switched guns a few times - mostly one 9mm Major STI TruBor

for an almost identical backup TruBor 9mm.

 

Once, I started out shooting 9mm minor (declared) in my TruBor,

and switched to 9mm major due to many FTF's.  No one seemed

to notice, or care (guess if I had switched from Major to Minor,

they might have cared).

 

Once, I was at a Level II match and my front sight flew off - and I

was 300 miles from home, without a back up.   Real nice guy

on my squad loaned me a Beretta and it almost fit in my BHP

holster, so I switched over.   Another RO spotted that the Beretta

didn't exactly fit in my holster, and I explained what happened,

and he didn't object.

 

Of course, I wasn't anywhere near the top ten, either.    

 

[Thomas H]

4 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

Once, I started out shooting 9mm minor (declared) in my TruBor,

and switched to 9mm major due to many FTF's.  No one seemed

to notice, or care (guess if I had switched from Major to Minor,

they might have cared).

 

 

Just for clarity's sake, when you switched from one gun to the next, since you declared Minor, it stayed that way even though you were shooting Major ammo later, yes?

 

Just wanted to make clear that while you can go DOWN in power factor, you can't go up.  (You can switch the guns, but that is separate from power factor scoring.)

 

Meaning, if you started by declaring Major, shot Major, and then had to switch to a Minor gun, the RM will probably let you---but your power factor will be switched to Minor for all match scoring.  (It won't be Major for half and Minor for half.)

 

If you started by declaring Minor, and later had to switch to a gun that only worked with Major ammo, you'd still have a power factor of Minor for the entire match.

 

This is what happened for you, correct?  (It should have...)

 

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Sorry, Tom, my fault for the confusion   ...    

 

I shot only the one TruBor -  started shooting factory Remington green box 115 gr ammo,

which I knew I was going to shoot, so I declared Minor for the match.

 

Some teammates noticed the dribble from the back end of the gun, and I started having

too many FTF's, so I broke out some 9mm Major rounds I had just purchased, and 

started using the Major loads in the same gun.

 

Since I had declared Minor, I didn't think about breaking any rules by switching to Major

rounds - but got Much better ejection, and no more FTF's.

 

This was about ten years ago - 

 

Hope this clarifies my earlier posting     

[motosapiens]

whew! I thought tom was going to go to jack's house and make a citizen's arrest under 10.6.1.

[Hi-Power Jack]

He didn't have to ....

 

I turned myself in and threw myself on the mercy of the RO ....    

 

My sentence ?    :    I had to shoot one IDPA match ......     

[mont1120]

"Just wanted to make clear that while you can go DOWN in power factor, you can't go up.  (You can switch the guns, but that is separate from power factor scoring.)"

 

And this is why I asked the question, I know of one instance where a shooters .40 Limited gun went south, and he was not allowed to use a 9mm Limited gun as a switch in the match. He did explain he knew he would go minor, but the RM said that was too much of a change in firearm platforms. He was forced to shoot with a broken rear sight the rest of the match with the .40.

 

 

[Gary Stevens]

5 hours ago, mont1120 said:

"Just wanted to make clear that while you can go DOWN in power factor, you can't go up.  (You can switch the guns, but that is separate from power factor scoring.)"

 

And this is why I asked the question, I know of one instance where a shooters .40 Limited gun went south, and he was not allowed to use a 9mm Limited gun as a switch in the match. He did explain he knew he would go minor, but the RM said that was too much of a change in firearm platforms. He was forced to shoot with a broken rear sight the rest of the match with the .40.

 

 

Gee Whiz.

[Thomas H]

17 hours ago, motosapiens said:

whew! I thought tom was going to go to jack's house and make a citizen's arrest under 10.6.1.

 

Yes, because asking for a clarification directly related to the topic of the thread is like that.  Sheesh.

[Thomas H]

5 hours ago, mont1120 said:

"Just wanted to make clear that while you can go DOWN in power factor, you can't go up.  (You can switch the guns, but that is separate from power factor scoring.)"

 

And this is why I asked the question, I know of one instance where a shooters .40 Limited gun went south, and he was not allowed to use a 9mm Limited gun as a switch in the match. He did explain he knew he would go minor, but the RM said that was too much of a change in firearm platforms. He was forced to shoot with a broken rear sight the rest of the match with the .40.

 

 

 

Wow.

Yeah, that's wrong.  The RM should have allowed the switch, and the shooter would just have been scored as Minor for the match.

[Thomas H]

17 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Sorry, Tom, my fault for the confusion   ...    

 

I shot only the one TruBor -  started shooting factory Remington green box 115 gr ammo,

which I knew I was going to shoot, so I declared Minor for the match.

 

Some teammates noticed the dribble from the back end of the gun, and I started having

too many FTF's, so I broke out some 9mm Major rounds I had just purchased, and 

started using the Major loads in the same gun.

 

Since I had declared Minor, I didn't think about breaking any rules by switching to Major

rounds - but got Much better ejection, and no more FTF's.

 

This was about ten years ago - 

 

Hope this clarifies my earlier posting     

 

Yep, thanks----I completely misunderstood what you meant to say.

 

[theWacoKid]

On 1/31/2018 at 10:52 AM, Gary Stevens said:

Simple answer, if your back up gun is legal for the Division then it is ok.

 

IMO, this is and should always be the answer to 5.1.7.  HOWEVER, I have paid attention to RM's and heard that SOME of them interpret the rule in a MUCH different way.  In other words they will look to see if your 'backup' gun to them seems 'advantageous'.  It is a slippery slope and in my mind an improper interpretation of the rules.  I think as long as you fit the division you aren't at an advantage to anyone else in your division but some RM's are looking to see if you are at an advantage vs the original gun.    

 

I believe any backup gun is good to go as long as it still fits the division.  Where scrutiny from the RM should really come in is if you continually want to switch back and forth and are looking to switch a gun seeking an advantage for a stage or stages.  

 

I've never been not allowed to go to a backup gun, however, be warned you are somewhat at the mercy of the RM.

[Gary Stevens]

3 hours ago, theWacoKid said:

 

IMO, this is and should always be the answer to 5.1.7.  HOWEVER, I have paid attention to RM's and heard that SOME of them interpret the rule in a MUCH different way.  In other words they will look to see if your 'backup' gun to them seems 'advantageous'.  It is a slippery slope and in my mind an improper interpretation of the rules.  I think as long as you fit the division you aren't at an advantage to anyone else in your division but some RM's are looking to see if you are at an advantage vs the original gun.    

 

I believe any backup gun is good to go as long as it still fits the division.  Where scrutiny from the RM should really come in is if you continually want to switch back and forth and are looking to switch a gun seeking an advantage for a stage or stages.  

 

I've never been not allowed to go to a backup gun, however, be warned you are somewhat at the mercy of the RM.

Everyone that keeps their best and most advantageous gun in your shooting bag while you shoot an inferior gun please raise your hand.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Gary Stevens said:

Everyone that keeps their best and most advantageous gun in your shooting bag while you shoot an inferior gun please raise your hand.

Gary, that’s classic! Thank you

[Gary Stevens]

27 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Gary, that’s classic! Thank you

 

Feel free to use it?

[mont1120]

2 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

Everyone that keeps their best and most advantageous gun in your shooting bag while you shoot an inferior gun please raise your hand.

 

I must incorporate that strategy in this years matches, then shoot the better gun the last three matches. This way the improvement in my scores and shooting will be superb.......

 

That was a great quote for sure. 

[theWacoKid]

3 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

Everyone that keeps their best and most advantageous gun in your shooting bag while you shoot an inferior gun please raise your hand.

 

I mean, technically, I have.  If a gun that shoots a little slower for me and is running 100% while my favorite gun is better but running at 90%, then the 'better' gun will be on back-up duty.

[DKorn]

22 hours ago, theWacoKid said:

 

IMO, this is and should always be the answer to 5.1.7.  HOWEVER, I have paid attention to RM's and heard that SOME of them interpret the rule in a MUCH different way.  In other words they will look to see if your 'backup' gun to them seems 'advantageous'.  It is a slippery slope and in my mind an improper interpretation of the rules.  I think as long as you fit the division you aren't at an advantage to anyone else in your division but some RM's are looking to see if you are at an advantage vs the original gun.    

 

I believe any backup gun is good to go as long as it still fits the division.  Where scrutiny from the RM should really come in is if you continually want to switch back and forth and are looking to switch a gun seeking an advantage for a stage or stages.  

 

I've never been not allowed to go to a backup gun, however, be warned you are somewhat at the mercy of the RM.

 

To me, it’s simple:

-Do you have a legitimate reason to switch? If yes, go ahead. If not, then you’re trying to game it and probably shouldn’t be allowed to switch. I’d be pretty lenient here. Unless your gun is running 100%, I’d probably ok a switch. 

-Is the gun legal for the division? If yes, go ahead and switch. If not, go ahead and switch, but welcome to open. 

 

Am I interpreting this correctly?

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, DKorn said:

 

To me, it’s simple:

-Do you have a legitimate reason to switch? If yes, go ahead. If not, then you’re trying to game it and probably shouldn’t be allowed to switch. I’d be pretty lenient here. Unless your gun is running 100%, I’d probably ok a switch. 

-Is the gun legal for the division? If yes, go ahead and switch. If not, go ahead and switch, but welcome to open. 

 

Am I interpreting this correctly?

Wow, I just realized how convoluted this could get IF WE LET IT. If the guns meets division requirements then switch it. 

  I mean, if a gun isn’t working right and you change to one that does, isn’t that giving you an advantage? ? we can’t get to the point where RM’s want to grill us on why we want to switch. 

  I can think of several reasons to switch guns that in a way are none of the RM’s business. What if you put a new comp on your open gun and realize it sucks? Heck yeah, I’d want to switch guns. 

  If the RM has reason to suspect you may be gaming (cheating), then let him explain that and watch for it.

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

 I can think of several reasons to switch guns that in a way are none of the RM’s business. What if you put a new comp on your open gun and realize it sucks? Heck yeah, I’d want to switch guns. 

 

I didn’t even think about situations like that, where you’d want to switch guns because you’ve made a recent change that isn’t working out. 

 

However, by my reading of 5.1.7, a switch is only allowed if the gun and/or sights become “unserviceable” or “unsafe”. Is “I switched to an m&p recently and realized on the first stage that I’m not used to it yet and want to go back to my Glock” or “I put a new comp on and it isn’t as nice as I thought it would be” enough justification to switch?