Top 16 at National Chamlionships

[a matt]

  I did a search but I could not find any info about the top 16 at Nationals so I figured I would simply ask here. What happened or really why has the .org stopped giving Metals for the Top 16 at Nationals and metals for a stage win at Nationals? I know we no longer have the Top 16 going to a shoot off like IPSC continues doing but to me both a Top 16 and or a stage win at Nationals would be a pretty big accomplishments Maybe some see these small victories participation trophies? IDK, but thanks for looking. 

Edited November 1, 2017 by a matt

[RJH]

Cause you gotta give top d, c, b, a class, senior, super senior, law enforcement, military, lady and a few others their participation trophies?  Just a guess.....

[a matt]

Yea..... um I was thinking “NO”..Top 16 being the overall division winner is #1 then straight down to the 16th place overall and it doesn’t matter if 16th place is the 2nd D class shooter. Top 16 overall, not top 16 in each class. Lol, but I would not be surprised if a few seniors make it to the top 16 “overall”, in open anyway.  

[9x45]

It's pretty well defined as to what must be done, beyond that, it's up to the Match Director. Top 16 is nothing more than a number of overall combined match points. 

 

6.2 Match Divisions
6.2.1 USPSA Divisions recognize different handguns and equipment (see Appendix D). Each match must recognize at least one Division. When multiple Divisions are available in a match, each Division must be scored separately and independently, and match results must recognize a winner in each Division.

 

6.2.7 Recognition of a competitor in a specific Division will not preclude further recognition in a Category.

 

6.2.2 In USPSA sanctioned matches, the minimum number of competitors stipulated in Appendix A2 must compete in each Division for it to be recognized. If there are insufficient competitors in a Division, the Match Director may allow that Division to stand without official USPSA recognition.
 

 

6.3 Match Categories
6.3.1 USPSA matches may include different Categories within each Division to recognize different groups of competitors. A competitor may declare multiple Categories for a match or tournament.

 

6.1.6 Shoot-Off – An event conducted separately from a match. Eligible competitors compete directly against each other by simultaneously shooting at separate but equal target arrays in a process of elimination (Appendix F2 and F3).

[Mikeski]

Maybe this change has been done since they started combining the Nationals (Optics, Iron Sights, Classic). I remember the the 2016 Limited Nationals where they did not do top 16 but had medals for stage wins, but then everyone there was shooting Limited. 

 

[Foxj66]

I hate seeing it go away, when I started top 16 was a way people described good shooters like "Top 16 GM"

[a matt]

 It’s something to shoot for that doesn’t that call for ?% devotion and the cost 1/2 of everything you have because ?% can = a divorce, in some cases. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by a matt

[MikeFoley]

A little history...

Top 16 can be traced to the beginning of IPSC in 1976.  Col. Jeff Cooper's wife Janelle came up with a single or double elimination bracket (affectionately called the J-ladder) for the shoot-off, which at the time was a portion of your Nationals score.  The top 16 shooters by score were entered into the shoot-off, and shot man vs. man until there was only one winner.  The shoot-off was eliminated from the Nationals scores sometime before I shot my first Nationals in 2002 or 2003, but there were shoot-offs as a distraction while scores and prize tables were setup until about 2005 or 2006.  These were not part of the match score, and often not attended by many people in the last few years they were offered.  For the next few years, USPSA continued to recognize the top 16, but likely wasn't sure why.  We stopped recognizing the top 16 in 2016.  We simply use the official USPSA standard, rule book appendix A2, and will continue to do so.  A three position podium puts the top three shooters at the top (just like most other sports), then classes D-M are recognized separately, then categories.  A division must have 10 to be recognized, a class must have 10 to be recognized, and a category must have 5 to be recognized.  As the MD for all USPSA National Championships, I use Appendix A2 absolutely and recognize one place per 10 up to 3 places.  While many shooters strived to reach the top 16, it really is arbitrary between 16th and 17th, and can be argued that the top guys are there to win.  Top 16 still can be used to recognize good shooters unofficially, if that is your bar, and so can match percentage, match points, and top 10.  The sky is the limit.  My limit is top 3 for trophies.  Awards ceremonies shouldn't take all night, and the last few haven't.

Edited November 2, 2017 by MikeFoley

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, MikeFoley said:

Top 16 still can be used to recognize good shooters unofficially, if that is your bar,

 

Anyone who gets top 16 in any pistol division can have a free home-brew at my house. Good job.

Edited November 3, 2017 by motosapiens

[a matt]

5 hours ago, MikeFoley said:

A little history...

Top 16 can be traced to the beginning of IPSC in 1976.  Col. Jeff Cooper's wife Janelle came up with a single or double elimination bracket (affectionately called the J-ladder) for the shoot-off, which at the time was a portion of your Nationals score.  The top 16 shooters by score were entered into the shoot-off, and shot man vs. man until there was only one winner.  The shoot-off was eliminated from the Nationals scores sometime before I shot my first Nationals in 2002 or 2003, but there were shoot-offs as a distraction while scores and prize tables were setup until about 2005 or 2006.  These were not part of the match score, and often not attended by many people in the last few years they were offered.  For the next few years, USPSA continued to recognize the top 16, but likely wasn't sure why.  We stopped recognizing the top 16 in 2016.  We simply use the official USPSA standard, rule book appendix A2, and will continue to do so.  A three position podium puts the top three shooters at the top (just like most other sports), then classes D-M are recognized separately, then categories.  A division must have 10 to be recognized, a class must have 10 to be recognized, and a category must have 5 to be recognized.  As the MD for all USPSA National Championships, I use Appendix A2 absolutely and recognize one place per 10 up to 3 places.  While many shooters strived to reach the top 16, it really is arbitrary between 16th and 17th, and can be argued that the top guys are there to win.  Top 16 still can be used to recognize good shooters unofficially, if that is your bar, and so can match percentage, match points, and top 10.  The sky is the limit.  My limit is top 3 for trophies.  Awards ceremonies shouldn't take all night, and the last few haven't.

NIce History lesson.  Thanks for sharing Boss. 

[TaterHead]

At a nationals a few years ago the first place Master was in the top 16. He did not get the trophy for first master because he was in the top 16. The second place master was awarded the first place trophy. That just didn't seem right, so maybe it's better without the top 16 thing.

[CHA-LEE]

Given how much these nationals matches cost to attend I don’t see why the top 16 and stage winners couldn’t be recognized along with the normal class and category top 3. 

 

To me it’s sad when a level 2 match has better quality trophies and more depth of recognition than the Nationals. But that seems to be the norm these days.

[Foxj66]

On 11/5/2017 at 8:34 PM, CHA-LEE said:

Given how much these nationals matches cost to attend I don’t see why the top 16 and stage winners couldn’t be recognized along with the normal class and category top 3. 

 

To me it’s sad when a level 2 match has better quality trophies and more depth of recognition than the Nationals. But that seems to be the norm these days.

 

awards seem all over the place. I have gotten something nice for top 3 at a state match and then no award for 3rd master at an Area match. The top 16 just had a history and classic meaning. I get why it's gone but I wish it wasn't.

[a matt]

Why is it gone?  Because we don’t not have the shoot off anymore. Didn’t we still recognize long after the shoot off had stopped? I see why the shootoff have gone away, but not the recognition of the Top 16 following the overall winner. Now it’s kinda water under the bridge but I still think it would be well worth the minimal cost and effort. I also believe that giving a metal for a stage WIN at Nationals again would be well worth the return to each shoot that received one.  But what do I know???

 

[CHA-LEE]

The USPSA rule book defines the MINIMUM award structure for matches. There is nothing stopping a match director from going above and beyond the minimum requirements. Why USPSA would chose to adhere to this minimum award structure for the Nationals is beyond my comprehension and the excuses of not doing so by the President don't hold water in my book. It doesn't "Take all night" to present awards if the process is done efficiently. In my nationals experience the distribution of the prize table awards takes 2 - 3 times longer than the awards ceremony so recognizing the top 16 or stage winners isn't the primary "Time waster".

 

The primary issue I see is that USPSA should treat higher level matches with more importance and recognition due to the factual achievements produced by the competitors. There should be a different minimum award requirements for all different level matches (level 1, 2, 3 and Nationals). For example, I can see not getting recognized for finishing 4th overall in a division at a level 2 match when there are only 50+ competitors. But getting zero recognition for 4th overall or even the top 10 in a division at the Nationals when there are HUNDREDS of competitors in that division is pretty short sighted by USPSA. I am not a trophy collector myself so I honestly don't care about getting a trophy but recognition of a valid achievement when its warranted does matter. I finished 10th overall in Limited this year and obviously didn't get any recognition for that achievement. When I got back from the match I had a bunch of fellow shooters and non-shooters congratulate me on finishing 10th overall then immediately asked "What did you get for finishing 10th". The only honest answer that I can provide is "Nothing". This always produces confusing looks from these people as they have a hard time understanding why a 10th overall in the nation result would produce "Nothing" as a recognition.

 

If USPSA wants to restrict the recognition and achievements of their membership at their primer match of the year, that is obviously their choice. But it doesn't make much sense to me especially when the time and cost involved with doing so is a drop in the bucket when compared with the overall investment made into hosting a National event. If we can waste time and money on recognizing National titles and awards for provisional divisions then why not recognize established divisions properly. As a Match Director myself, some of the match management and administration decisions made by USPSA at the Nationals blow my mind.        

Edited November 7, 2017 by CHA-LEE

[Darqusoull13]

I'm a bit torn on this. I came into the sport after the "Top 16" had largely faded away. However, there's no doubt in my mind that the Top 16 shooters at Nationals earned something special. In my experience, shoot offs have been the most enjoyable parts of matches. They are low stress, super fun ways for competitors to let loose and have some fun. They are also EXCELLENT opportunities to highlight match sponsors. I love attending matches with a end of match celebration. Texas 3-Gun Championship does one of the best end of match events and I think this is a larger draw for the match, and sponsors, than folks believe. A big lunch gathering with buffet style awesome BBQ, beer and fun before awards start is a great way for folks to relax and catch up with old friends and it really does make the match more memorable. 

I realize the rule book stipulates 3rd place D class Open has to be recognized if the requirement is met. I get the classification system takes these data for matches that meet specific requirements. But to Charlie's point, could mailing out certificates for recognition meet the requirements for the rule books? Instead of handing out plaques we could take the time at the match to have some fun during the hour arbitration and before the top 16 awards? Heck, if you set up the shoot off beside the vendors tents could you also have folks perusing products in between shooters running the shoot off? 

[HoMiE]

Do you get an automatic invite to next year national if you placed in top 16 or top 10? Didn’t that used to be a thing as well besides recognition. 

[Foxj66]

11 hours ago, HoMiE said:

Do you get an automatic invite to next year national if you placed in top 16 or top 10? Didn’t that used to be a thing as well besides recognition. 

 

Not anymore if ever, All of my invites have come from winning my class at nationals or winning my division at my state match. I think I got an invite for winning my class and being second overall at a state match once as well. Doesn't really matter if you want to go to nationals you should be able to get in without an invite.

[a matt]

Yep, I think the 2019 limited and open divisions might be a little harder than you think to get in, I’m basing this on the location now vs Florida and the fact that all high cap division will be in Utah and all the 10 round divisions are still in Florida 2 completely separate events. Plus, with so much more to do and see out west I would think more would want to make the trek vs coming to Florida and like Florida but I’m ready for the trek....