How to make 9mm reloads equal factory?

[1eyedfatman]

I shot some groups at 25 yards this weekend.  I noticed that my factory Stand 1 Armory 147g 9mm rounds were shooting 1.5" left and 2" high.  But my 9mm reloads were double those numbers at 3" left and 4" high.  I reload with Xtreme 147g, Titegroup (3.1), Winchester primers and mixed range brass.  My OAL is 1.124 and I measure my crimp carefully also.  What's the best way to get the same results with my reloads as with my factory ammo?  Only reload with new brass?  But if the bullets aren't identical as well as the measurements and powder, will that throw it off also?

[Smitty79]

Have you chrono'd the ammo?   Velocity and recoil differences could account for this.

[VanMan1961]

+1 on the chrono as the velocity will have an effect on POA vs POI.

Factory 147gr will be around 980fps.  My 147gr reloads using 3.4gr of Titegroup are 900fps.  Your reloads at 3.1gr of Titegroup are probably going ~850fps.

[kneelingatlas]

First off, what's your goal?  Make USPSA minor with a soft-shooting load? Are you going to reload or buy factory?

If you're reloading, why would you worry about factory loads? I suggest you get a load you like dialed in, then change your sights so you're right on.  I can't remember the last time I bought loaded ammo.

[Brooke]

2 hours ago, kneelingatlas said:

First off, what's your goal?  Make USPSA minor with a soft-shooting load? Are you going to reload or buy factory?

If you're reloading, why would you worry about factory loads? I suggest you get a load you like dialed in, then change your sights so you're right on.  I can't remember the last time I bought loaded ammo.

Good advice. In addition, what is the OAL on your factory loads? Longer than 1.124 for sure, probably about 1.150. Maybe you need to reload some at that length to compare. As someone else said, the PF of your factory stuff is probably 145-150. Your reloads with 3.1 TG are more like 130. I'm not knocking that. It has it's own advantages, but more similar comparisons might give you some clues.

How consistent are your reloads in every measurement....powder, OAL, crimp, etc.? Personally I have double the OAL variation with mixed brass than with sorted headstamps. Is that an issue...don't know...maybe, especially if your gun likes longer OAL's.

I see no reason to assume that factory loads are superior to reloads once you get the reload correct. Most people find the opposite. You have a lot of work to do. Start with getting a chronograph and go from there with finding facts.This is not easy or cheap to start with but it is worthwhile. What kind of press are you using? Try some jacketed bullets. Becareful of deforming plated bullets with "crimps".

Put down the computer and get to work.  

Edited December 19, 2016 by Brooke

[1eyedfatman]

6 hours ago, kneelingatlas said:

First off, what's your goal?  Make USPSA minor with a soft-shooting load? Are you going to reload or buy factory?

If you're reloading, why would you worry about factory loads? I suggest you get a load you like dialed in, then change your sights so you're right on.  I can't remember the last time I bought loaded ammo.

Thanks all.  For reliability reasons, I like to use "factory" ammo for major sanctioned matches.  These are rounds loaded for low power factory like Freedom Munitions 147g or Stand 1 Armory 147g Chubbies.  These are not considered typical hot ammo but are loaded for competition.  I don't see much malfunctions with my reloads, but at a sanctioned match all it takes is 1 and I'm out of the running.  It happened to me on 2nd stage at Arkansas IDPA.  But, I never have a malfunction with the factory competition ammo.  I'd shoot them all the time, but more expensive.  So, for club matches, I shoot my reloads.

Which is typically fine, but we tend to have local USPSA stages where the MD really stretches out the distance of targets and steel and/or targets greater then 15yards with tight no-shoots and I've seen my accuracy come into question.  I noticed my G34 was shooting way left so I went down a path of cleaning and checking my gun including a well known local Glocksmith.  Some adjustments were made and he just installed Dawson adjustable sights yesterday.

But I tested groups for both ammo and out of the same gun I noticed the difference with reloads have 2x the variance (high left).  Given the above, I would love to zero my factory competition ammo and get my reloads as close to them as possible.  BTW, the Stand 1 factory ammo groups much tighter too.  I just don't want to be in a situation where I have to say with my ammo...OK, on further targets aim 2" right and 2" low on the target.

Your comments have gave me some great ideas on what to look at for my ammo.  Thanks all.

[rowdyb]

use a different bullet. i've found consistently better grouping from either a coated bullet or a jacketed bullet versus plated.

you have your reasons, but i would find a way to have match ammo and practice ammo just turn into ammo. have it all be the same.

i think my ammo is better than factory. and i've also seen freedom and stand 1 fail shooters in a match as much as anyone's reloads.

your question, how do i make my reloads equal factory?

• use quality components
• qc your equipment and procedures
• u-die, lee fcd, precise powder measure
• gather real data and track it over time
• have someone else shoot your groups for evaluation
• when you find the right combination of things, stop. never change it.
• don't have competing goals for you ammunition to accomplish.

Edited December 19, 2016 by rowdyb

[GJGary]

I take a little extra time reloading for bigger matches than local to ensure reliable ammo.

If you insist on your current path I would move your sights to split the difference between the 2 types of ammo.

[B_RAD]

To echo what others here have said, I'd reload my own. I've seen freedom jam in guns too. Was it the ammo or the gun? IDK.  Unless you're chamber checking each round in your barrel, or a tighter case gauge, you're taking a chance.  Even with factory ammo.  Just my $0.02  

 

[kneelingatlas]

It sounds like you're using factory ammo as a crutch to avoid addressing issues in your reloading technique. There's no reason your loads can't be as accurate and reliable as factory.  I chamber check every round before a match, but there's nothing special to "match ammo" and I don't think there should be if you want consistent results.

Edited December 20, 2016 by kneelingatlas

[Hi-Power Jack]

2 hours ago, 1eyedfatman said:

   I would love to zero my factory competition ammo and get my reloads as close to them as possible. 

That's a great goal, if you're going to keep using factory ammo for comps - no reason to, as many

have already pointed out.

BUT, if you want to match up your reloads with factory, you'll have to experiment - different bullets,

different quantities of powder and possibly even different powders.

You must be a much better shot than I am if you can tell the difference between 1.5" and 3" off

at 25 yards.   I'd presume your groups are probably 3-4" at that distance, and if you were to

fire a 15 - shot group, that your two groups (factory and reloads) would overlap quite a bit?

How large a group are you shooting?

[1eyedfatman]

I'd agree this method is a crutch for sub-standard reloading.  But, that is where I am in my progression in reloading knowledge and skill (Dillon 650 used).  A lot of it is about time and resources and how I can get to where some of you guys are.  I felt my reloads were good enough for local matches but not sanctioned matches with big entry fees, traveling expenses and trophies so I compromised, but probably not thinking through all angles.  I do still case gauge all my match factory ammo and they do fall in a lot easier then my reloads.  It was good enough to allow me to Master up in IDPA, but I don't think good enough to be a good Master or make USPSA A.  If I can get my group pics off my iPhone I'll try to post up my groups.

[Bkreutz]

If my handloads equaled factory loads, I'd quit handloading. I make my own ammo because the only ammo failures that I have had were with factory ammo. (That and factory 9 major is almost nonexistent)

[Bullets]

Ditch the xtreme bullets. That's problem #1

[1eyedfatman]

5 minutes ago, Bullets said:

Ditch the xtreme bullets. That's problem #1

What bullets do you recommend?  I was using 147g coated bullets but they seemed to tumble sometimes and I don't get that with Xtremes.

[safeactionjackson]

I've had pretty good luck using the same bullet you mentioned, for match ammo I run a slightly different powder behind a 147gr MG CMJ.  My practice and match loads are very similar, but match gets better components.  Process of elimination and some time should allow you to vet out your reloading issue (we've all add them), as will changing the projectile.

At my skill level, bullet accuracy/consistency is the least of my problems.

[rdinga]

I recommend Zero 147 JHP and WSF powder and once fired brass of the same headstamp. 

Precison Delta make a 147 FMJ-TC that is very accurate, easy to load and a whisker cheaper than the Zero bullet when ordered in lots of 2k.

And then your reloads will kick sand in the face of factory ammo. 

 

[1eyedfatman]

20 minutes ago, rdinga said:

I recommend Zero 147 JHP and WSF powder and once fired brass of the same headstamp. 

Precison Delta make a 147 FMJ-TC that is very accurate, easy to load and a whisker cheaper than the Zero bullet when ordered in lots of 2k.

And then your reloads will kick sand in the face of factory ammo. 

 

Where do you like to by your once fired brass of the same headstamp from?

[Bullets]

5 hours ago, 1eyedfatman said:

What bullets do you recommend?  I was using 147g coated bullets but they seemed to tumble sometimes and I don't get that with Xtremes.

There are lots of options out there. Odd you had tumbling with coated. If coated didn't work I would try jacketed. Montana gold, zero, and precision delta are all popular. 

[ShortBus]

13 hours ago, kneelingatlas said:

It sounds like you're using factory ammo as a crutch to avoid addressing issues in your reloading technique. There's no reason your loads can't be as accurate and reliable as factory.  I chamber check every round before a match, but there's nothing special to "match ammo" and I don't think there should be if you wasn't consistent results.

And if he's using freedom for reliability, his loads must be super scary. 

 

 

 

You need to reavauate your loading process. If you can't make ammo that is safe and just as reliable as commercial, you probably should be reloading. 

Edited December 20, 2016 by ShortBus

[Brucenterry]

I think I read somewhere that if the bullet is truly tumbling, your velocity may be too low for your barrel.  Try upping the powder charge (using a Chrono) to see if that helps.  Also be sure to have cardboard behind the target to support the paper or the holes will look like a tumbling bullet.  The best luck I've had so far is w/ SNS 135g coated behind 3.8g of N320 at 1.135 in a CZ.

Good luck.

[Bullets]

That's probably not true. Plated bullets tumble at major velocities lots of times. 

[kneelingatlas]

There are a lot of factors which effect accuracy which is why you really need to taylor a load to your own gun if you're looking for really tight groups.  Rifling twist rate, bore size, barrel length, powder burn rate, bullet hardness/diameter all effect accuracy although a quality jacketed bullet is usually a good place to start.

Soft shooting, accurate, and cheap; it's hard to achieve two, all three is nearly impossible.

[MemphisMechanic]

On 12/19/2016 at 4:16 PM, 1eyedfatman said:

What bullets do you recommend?  I was using 147g coated bullets but they seemed to tumble sometimes and I don't get that with Xtremes.

1. Did you chronograph those loads that tumbled? If so, how fast were they going and what was your standard deviation with this ammo?

(If not, then you're flying blind and you really need to buy or borrow a chronograph, because you've only done step 1 out of 4, in load development)

2. What gun were they shot out of? Were they .355 or .356 sized bullets? Have you slugged the gun's barrel?

3. Have you experimented with different powder charges and overall lengths (OALs) using that bullet and that gun?

Edited December 21, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[njl]

147s seem to be a little trickier to get running properly.  If you want an easier bullet to make accurate ammo from, I'd suggest 124/125gr, and if you're new to reloading, FMJ or JHP.  Precision Delta, Montana Gold, Zero all make good jacketed bullets.  Any of these loaded to about 1050fps will be softer shooting than factory 115gr ammo, and should be at least as accurate unless you're doing something horribly wrong.  Coated or plated are more vulnerable to damage from too much crimp.  If you're crimping to smaller than .379", you probably should raise the crimp die.  Pull a bullet from one of your loaded cartridges.  Is there an obvious crimp ring on the bullet that wasn't there to start with?