New No Peek Rule

[reneet]

When Kay, Jerry and I arrived on the range, we were surprised to find out that the only time we would be allowed to actually walk the stages is prior to shooting them but figured no foul as long as it was the same for all of the competitors.

[folsoml]

I'm glad to see everyone else was as affected by the enforcement of this rule as I was. I guess this is why the rule is fair. In response to some of the comments I've seen (I don't yet know how to do that fancy quote box I keep seeing. Any help on that would be appreciated):

Many people mentioned allowing walk throughs could lead to people screwing around with props. I think this is already specifically not allowed in another rule.

Someone mentioned volunteering as an RO as a fair way to see the stages in advance because anyone can do it. I think the whole point of the rule is to make it fair for the people who can't show up until the day of the match, and don't have the advantage of showing up a day early to scout stages.

Lastly, someone wrote that there was no problem as most people walked through the stage and out the other side to get back in line. This worked fine for stages like Spring Cleaning, which had a beginning and an ending, but not so well on a stage like See Rock City II, where people had to walk back and forth from port to port to make sure you were seeing all the targets.

Overall, it was a great match. A good mix of hoser stages and more distant targets requiring accuracy.

[RKooi]

If the stages are available for preview for everyone how is that less fair than them only being available for a few? Each competitor makes his/her choice on when they arrive at the match.

[folsoml]

I guess it is considered less fair because other responsibilities in life might prevent people from getting there any earlier than the day of the match. A compromise might be that you can walk through only on a day you are shooting. But then there is the problem of being in the actual shooting squad's way.

[chp5]

If the stages are available for preview for everyone how is that less fair than them only being available for a few?  Each competitor makes his/her choice on when they arrive at the match.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Roger,

I RO'ed stage 5 on Fri, so I knew it very well (and had a jam and still didn't shoot it very well). However, I didn't walk any other stages. I don't see that as a meaningful advantage and but there's no way of keeping the ROs/set up crew off the stages.

As long as the rule is enforced, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have the stages open after-hours, but it's the match director's choice under the rules.

[cpty1]

Given no interruption to scheduled shooting, triggering props, etc., I think stage access should be granted. However, if the MD chooses to not allow after hours or downtime access, then that has to be communicated before competitors start showing up thinking they'll get on the stage beforehand.. and may have gone to great lengths, i.e. off-time, travel, etc., to do so.

[RKooi]

If our premier match (Nationals) allows it then why shouldn't State, Sectional and Area matches follow suit?

[GAPEACH]

Hey Guys,

I am always up for some constructive criticism. My main reasoning for the 'no peek' was that our published match book closed the range at 6:30pm, our match schedule for Friday and Saturday had people shooting until 6:45pm, so the fairest thing to do was to equally enforce the closing of stages. That way the people coming in Thursday night got the same deal that the people coming in Friday night or Saturday afternoon got. You could stand outside the bay and look all you wanted to. We did not make people leave the range at 6:30pm. Area matches are not like the Nationals because we don't have 2 weeks to get the stages set. If we did, it would be easier to allow people to walk around on them.

I don't agree that the people setting up the stages get an unfair advantage. If there was an advantage to working the match, all your top rated shooters would be doing it. Many of my workers put in some very long hours the week of the match and working that hard before you have to shoot is not an advantage. One competitor was extremely rude to the match staff throughout the match and that person will not be welcomed back next year.

Thanks to everyone that was a part of this year's Area 6.

Cindy

[dogdoc]

If a shooter starts his/her match at 8am, I think if they are motivated enough to show up at 6am to preview the stages they should be allowed to.

My take on Area 6, like others stated, is that we should have been made aware of the fact that we wouldn't be allowed to preview the stages. The RO on one stage in particular was very aggressive about running people off before allowed. I watched him actually run up to his stage to run someone off and it turned out to be his RO help for the day!!

This match was set up in a way that several stages had walls that prevented you from seeing anything until you actually got onto the stage to shoot, and with large squads this did limit the time that the first few shooters had to make a plan of action.

If you are shooting the match to compete, and you were first to shoot on your squad, and your competition on another squad was last on that stage, he discussed the stage with the other shooters, taped, and set steel during the stage, he had an advantage without a doubt!

[CRubio]

Adding my $0.02.

I agree with Roger. If the Nationals have changed their mind from what had been done in the past and decided to have the stages open, pretty much at all times unless there is a squad shooting, then the rest of the matches should follow that lead. I shoot a good number of matches during the year and nowhere is this an issue.

Cy, I would agree that in stages 1-4, the five minutes were more than enough time, but walking up to stage 7, (using Carina's 15 person squad with 300 seconds example) 20 seconds would not even give you time to look through all five ports once, much less for us left handed folks that have to wait and go against the grain.

I can understand not activating or playing with the props, they do not let you do this at the Nationals either but the stages should be open to all competitors when not in use. This would help even the folks that cannot get there until the day of the match as they could (if they wanted to) spend a little extra time on a more complex stage prior to the start of the match or during lunch.

As MD for the upcoming Georgia State Match, I can assure you all stages will be open to eveyone as long as there is not an active squad using them.

Carlos

[XRe]

If you are shooting the match to compete, and you were first to shoot on your squad, and your competition on another squad was last on that stage, he discussed the stage with the other shooters, taped, and set steel during the stage, he had an advantage without a doubt!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again - I don't really have a horse in this race, but...

There's a principle in golf called "the rub of the green". ie - that's the way the game works. Unless they have a set shooting order for each squad that is the same on every stage (ie, unless you always shoot first and the other other guy always shoots last), this advantage should self-stabilize throughout the course of the match. It's part of the game. Yes, he might've gained a slight advantage on that stage (which is arguable - some folks mindf*** themselves w/ too much time), but on the next stage, or some other stage, the tables might be turned 180 degrees, giving you the solid advantage over him.

As long as the rules are applied evenly, there's no unfairness. It's obviously arguable what constitues applying this rule evenly.

I have to agree with Cindy, though, that helping to set up a match has a much more negative impact on my game than any perceived advantage in seeing the courses ahead of time. Hell, I did the artwork for the '96 GA State Champs, and therefore had the course designs two months in advance of everyone but the MD. It didn't help me out at all to have that "advantage". Being tired, rushed, or harried while I tried to shoot a two day match in one day didn't help, either. That's one big reason why I stopped volunteering to RO that match - I wanted to shoot to my full ability....

[ErikW]

I felt short-changed on a couple of the big field courses at the Columbus Cup with a 5 minute walk-through for a big squad. Plenty of time for a speed shoot, not near enough time for a freestyle field course with many options. Otherwise, they might as well be IDPA surprise stages.

I guess the thing to do is just take your own sweet time with your "on deck" walk through. But it still sucks to have to formulate and visualize your plan 30 seconds before LAMR.

[shred]

Kudos to Carlos for mentioning the lefty-problem on walkthroughs-- the conga line walkthrough only works until you want to go right-to-left instead of everybody else.

But.. disregarding the 'fairness' aspect for a minute (and no disrespect to the match staff at all-- I'm sure they didn't do this to P-O the shooters), there is a shooter-friendliness aspect too. Regardless of the intent, it looks like the A6 attendees are going to remember this for a while, and mostly not in a good way. Given as how most of us are there for fun, is this the direction we want to go as an organization?

[carinab]

Well, I opened a can of worms! Thanks for the clarification on the rule. Essentially it's up to the MD what is allowed, I understand that now. I don't have heartburn with the rule being enforced during the schedule hours. Especially given the number of shooters, it may be logistically necessary. But I don't see the harm in allowing "after hours" access if someone makes the extra effort to do so. There will never be a way to make the playing field completely even. I arrived late Friday night for a Saturday afternoon squad not only because my work/family thing dictated it but so I could walk around and snoop Saturday am. Most of the stages could be doped out by standing at the back and watching, true, but some most certainly could not. And by restricting access to those, the luck of the draw for shooting order suddenly makes things a game of chance rather than skill. Allowing off hours "peeking" removes the luck factor and the disadvantage of having to be in the top of the rotation on a tough stage. The same five minutes that levels the field is suddenly unlevel again if you are up first on the 150 point stage and your main competition is up first on the 40 point one. If no access has to be enforced, then maybe the squad size ought to be smaller to allow more time per shooter during those sacred five minutes because you truly do not get five minutes. It's five minutes divided by the number of people in your squad. That and/or make the size limit on the squad equal to the number of stages i.e. everyone gets to go first. That's my only suggestion.

I want to make it clear I liked the match and thought all involved did a herculean effort for the number of shooters (close to 400)....Thank you to Cindy, Bill, Barb, Rosie, Beth, and the whole cast of characters who ran the match. The stages were nationals level and very, very good. It ran very smoothly and had all the bells and whistles. I just wish I had put in as much preperation to shoot as the match staff did in hosting the event! Good work guys!

[BSeevers]

Kudos to Carlos for mentioning the lefty-problem on walkthroughs-- the conga line walkthrough only works until you want to go right-to-left instead of everybody else.

?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep and Its not just lefties, Open shooters often run a stage different than a Rev or Production and before this rule I was tired of running into new "big match" shooters walking around "wide eyed" trying to find all the reloading spots and targets. With that new rule it could be useless to use the 5 minutes with a mixed bag of skill sets and divisions. Some newbies will get in your way when you are the "on deck" shooter too.

Man I don't like a lot of the green book rules. If I am MD I will allow all shooters to walk the stages to thier hearts content UNLESS there is a squad shooting it. Rules like this never work because you can't legislate courtesy, much less common sense.

[Turtle]

Carina, Roger, & Carlos have made some excellent and well-articulated points and I agree with them totally. I don't think that anyone is saying that the MD was "unfair". It's just that some of us take the competition a little more serious than others and have shot a lot of matches with no problems (other than the extremely rare, previously mentioned, rude walk-thru hopper). So why blind side the shooters with this "new" policy. If competitors are not to be allowed on the stages before the official walk-thru, then the squads should be smaller and there should have been prior notification to the shooters. I went out of my way to get to the match early and wasn't really thrilled to find out I wasn't welcome on the stages. We could go back and forth about how fair it is or isn't but that wouldn't really get us anywhere.

Again, this is not a knock at the match staff at all. You all did a wonderful job and I thank you from my heart for your hard work. I hope that this constructive criticism is taken the way it was intended...

Regards,

Todd

[markm]

Our squad had open, limited, production, and lefties from GM to B class. The traditional conga line just does not work unless the stages are all simple with only one way to shoot. This applied to less than half the stages in the match... Great job on truly freestyle stages, but it did not lend to the 5 min walkthru.

BTW you had to be there to appreciate what the competitors are saying.

[Jon Merricks]

Here is what John Amidon has to say about closed stages at the Nationals.

Hi Jon,

For many years the Nationals had closed stages, their were signs all over advising the

competitor of this as well as in the match booklets, in recent years, that policy has

changed, since Michael Voigt became President, he has tried to make it more competitor

friendly, and has opened the stages for viewing, a half day before the match started.

Keeping with that concept, the stages will be open for viewing Sunday morning, the 17th,

for the Limited/Production/Revolver match and Wednesday afternoon for the Open/Limited 10

match.

Please keep in mind, that the stages will still be under going tweaking to cover shoot through

scenarios and such at these times, but they should be pretty well set as to how they will

actually be set up.

I feel that I should point out that the main reason the stages were closed, was that competitors

were going onto the stages and playing with the props, actually breaking some of them at the

time, this will not be allowed.

Regards,

John Amidon

MD 2005 US Nationals

----- Original Message -----

From: Jon Merricks

To:

Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:39 PM

Subject: Closed Stages

Mr. Amidon, I recently attended the Area 6 Championship match and this was the first match that I have ever attended that the stages were closed, meaning that other than the five minute walk through no one was allowed on the stages. Unfortunately this unnecessary decision bothered many of the competitors. I for one will never attended another match were this the procedure. I do not have the paper in front of me but I recall a statement from you saying something about a certain day at the years Nationals we be for the redesign stages and that any non-competitors caught on the stages will be disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct. Could you clarify this? Will the stages be open as long as there is no construction taking place or when a squad in on the stage? The several of the people I am traveling with would like to know as soon as possible so we can cancel our plans. Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

Yours truly,

Jon Merricks

TY-45462

[RKooi]

I want to apologize if I seemed overly critical of individuals. Cindy, Bill, Rosie, Mark etc. I certainly didn't mean my thoughts on the subject to come off as an attack. A decision was made and I respect that. I just have a different opinion. However as a CRO on stage 12 I enforced the 'no peek' to a fault (ask anybody....OK don't ask Carina )

The people who were rude to Cindy and other match staffers because of the decision are idiots. To disagree is one thing, but c'mon.

I think Shred really hit the nail on the head in his post above.

[Storm]

But.. disregarding the 'fairness' aspect for a minute, there's a big shooter-friendliness aspect too.  Regardless of the intent, it looks like the A6 attendees are going to remember this for a while, and mostly not in a good way.  Given as how most of us are there for fun, is this the direction we want to go as an organization?

That's very true. The first time I encountered "closed" stages was at an Area 6 several years ago. I'd probably shot about 6 major matches including a couple of Area matches at that point, but was still a D class shooter. I felt very uncomfortable shooting that match since at that point I really needed a little extra time to get things figured out. Needless to say that turned out to be the worst match experience I've had. I didn't go back to Area 6 for several years despite shooting many Area matches & several Nationals. It left a very negative impression on me. It definitely emphasizes the "Range Nazi" attitude so many RO's work to avoid.

I'm glad I didn't attend Area 6 this year. I don't like competitor unfriendly matches & feel this is a competitor unfriendly rule. I'm not trying to disrespect the match organizers. They don't have an easy job. I just appreciate those matches that are competitor friendly. I have a choice as to which matches I attend & I choose not to intentionally attend matches that don't allow folks to look at the stages ahead of time (when there aren't any squads actually shooting the match).

As an organization, this is not the direction I want to go.

[Sterling White]

Gotta agee with Roger and others on this one. I've spent quite a bit of time visiting with several GMs on this and the advise has been the same... for optimum performance its good for a person to get in a little ahead of match time and focus on these things: relaxation, planning, and getting into a zone.

I say this because I really feel like my performance suffered this last season. My team mate and myself would fly in the night before, shoot, then leave for home. So, I'm taking a different approach and listening to those like Todd, EB, Bear, and others. I made special arrangements to get to this match ahead of time only to find....well its been well published above!

Hope that the common sense rule will be applied and flexibility built in to the upcoming matches.

sw

[eric nielsen]

Being right [or maybe wrong] after the fact, after many many people get angry at you and have an ugly image of you in their mind - that's all damage control. It's missing the point. Anger is not cancelled out by logic; anger lingers of its own power.

It's a shame this happened on a great collection of stages. Each of them could be figured out with a little time - if you had the time. I spent much of the match prepping a new shooter on my squad and also tipping my buddies from back home who were on other squads - all of which could be considered "unfair". I did it because I thought it would be cool if those guys & I could all perform at our best.

Edited May 17, 2005 by caspian28r

[Little Bill]

I cannot agree enough with Roger, Carina, Shred, Adam, etc.

My preference is to allow previewing of stages within reason before your squad is up (the evening before the match, the morning before the match, during lunch, etc.) I think it is MUCH more competitor friendly, and leads to a better experience / competition at the match.

Case in point, I was victimized by Stage 7 See Rock City on Friday. We were the 1st squad to shoot that stage in competition. The CRO running the stage on Friday AM gave us 4:59 seconds and called the first shooter. I think I was 3rd or 4th shooter, and walked to the line frustrated because I had not discovered the "key" to shooting the poorly-designed-memory-stage. (It was shoot-through city on plywood hardcover, with no possibility of determining the non-scoring targets) I shot to survive and put holes in every target with a dreadful time.

For the next two days I was one of the ROs on this stage. The squads were very frustrated with the 5min rule, and we (at least 3 of 4 ROs) tried to give the on deck shooter ample time to prepare before LMR. We saw alot of frustrated shooters, and I hope that the other Area matches DO NOT have the 5min rule (edit: Only allowing shooters 5min before stage and no preview at any other time), and learn from this situation.

[carinab]

By not allowing the shooters to preview, I believe the match officials negatively effected the outcome of this match! (Right Carina )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know why I missed this post before when reading the thread. I screwed up stage 10 because I didn't count rounds - the time thing contributed, but it was my mistake. I'm sorry the match staff is getting such an earful just because I asked if this rule was going to be in effect at all the majors for the rest of the year. I hope they realize anything I posted is meant as constructive criticism. I have nothing but respect for the difficulty in scheduling that many shooters and trying to keep the whole thing working smooth. I couldn't handle the challenge of running this big a match so I'm grateful there are people out there who like setting up these shoots so I can come visit and have fun. Again, I liked the match and thought it was top notch.

[eric nielsen]

I figured out See Rock City on Sunday only by being about 7th in our rotation and I took the time to climb up the 6' high wooden deck that was build on that range bay - only when our squad became the shooting squad.

The rest didn't know about this opportunity to see all the angles from up high until I hopped up the stairs. Only knew about it myself from watching and talking with Smitty when he shot it Saturday. Horsed up about 5 or 6 squadmates on the "plan" there, similar to our shooting the Texas Stars. They were grateful on both counts.

I still say it's a great match, would've been better if the people who were motivated to prepare and perform were allowed to do that. I don't think we need to be giving & taking away match points based on personality type. Let people shoot their own game. My 2c.