New No Peek Rule

[carinab]

At Area 6 this weekend there was a no peek rule in effect. If you arrived at the range early, skipped lunch, or stayed late - you were not allowed to look at the stages as they were blocked by yellow "no entry" tape. Your stage review was limited to the five minutes given to the squad. Most of the RO's stuck tightly to the five minute limit with few exceptions. With my squad size running 15 people this gave each shooter about 20 seconds to walk a stage and figure out a plan (300 seconds divided by 15 people). On some stages this wasn't an issue, on others it was a huge disadvantage if you were at the top of the rotation.

When talking to a few different people at the match, they cited that this policy came in with the new rule book. They further cited that I could look forward to this rule being implemented at the other Area matches and the Nationals.

Fact or fiction? I've tried to find something in the book but am not really finding anything.

[BSeevers]

Its a new rule but the RO can let you inspect stage as before. It says you must have permission to inspect a stage not that you can't inspect a stage til you run your squad.

[Skywalker]

Carina,

from USPSA rulebook 2004:

8.7.5 No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire or the Range Master. Violators will incur a warning for the first offense but may be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6 for subsequent offenses.

Guess they were not rumors...

Anyway, even if the MD/RM/RO can stipulate the "walkthrough" duration for the whole squad, you are always allowed to rehearse the CoF when it's your turn on the deck (usually when the RO is scoring previous competitor and targets are being patched) as part of your preparation.

[Rob Boudrie]

US 8.7.5 - No person is permitted to enter of move through a course of fire without the prior approval of ta Range Officer assigned to that course of fire or the Range Master. Violators may be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6 for wilful offenses.

There is a important distinction between "The rules require us to close the stages to off-hours viewing", and "the rules permit us to close the stages to off hours viewing." Under 8.7.5, it would not be improper for the Range Master to grant blanket permission for off hours viewing by any interested party - just as it is not improper for a Range Master to order the stages closed during off hours.

So, the actual policies estabished under 8.7.5 may indeed differ between area championships.

[MikeFoley]

Isn't the spirit of this rule simply to keep approaching squads and off schedule shooters from getting on the stage while the current squad is shooting? That has been a big problem, and it really pisses me off to have to dodge the next squad and other passers-by while trying to work through the stage.

[XRe]

This sort of thing was enforced in the past even without the rule. Disallowing access to the stage outside the shooter's squad's normal time (5 minutes to play, plus the time the squad spends on the stage) insures equal exposure to the stage for each shooter. Obviously, by the way the rule is worded, it's the match management's discretion. I suspect there were arbitrations centered around this in the past.

And, my understanding is that it's never been cool to be walking around a stage while some other squad is engaged in shooting it - I don't know about rules, but it's damn rude.

I wasn't there, but my understanding is that this even went so far that shooters were DQ'ed from the Nationals one year for *flying* over the range to inspect the stages from the air. Their tail number was written down and they were met at the airport and were DQ'ed before they ever began the match. I'm not aware of an actual rule that prevents it If this is an urban leged, let me know

[RKooi]

I think it was enforced in the past at the discretion of the MD or RM. I have never understood barring early arriving competitors from the stages. If the stage is not occupied with shooters, what harm does stage inspection cause? Course designers, builders, RO's and other staff have already seen the stage(s) so you will have this inequity unless you bar them from shooting for score. If you do this then many of us will have to stop volunteering because I (for one) play this game for the competition. When the volunteers go away, the match goes away. Let everyone look that wants to look. Just make sure that they don't interfere when the shooting is going on. The above mentioned rule is a nice safeguard against that. Our game is a test of many things, most of them shooting oriented. I don't think it should be a test of how efficiently you push your fellow squad mates out of the way because you are first up and you still haven't been able to see all the targets on a given 'memory stage'.

I have been to Nationals at Barry and Bend and was allowed to preview the stages. If our biggest match allows it then why not the rest?

If the stages are open to everyone, then it is fair for everyone.

Just my .02

[MikeFoley]

I have no problem with the preview either, and I like to look at the stages before the match begins. After the match begins, I only look at the stages during the walk through time given, and while pasting and resetting targets. When I am on deck, I try to walk through as the shooter in front of me is being scored if I need to. Simple stages don't require as much of this obviously.

Since even state level matches have their courses on the internet, the preview rule can be used as a courtesy to the staff and shooters in the interest of time on match day. I imagine this rule was used for a logical reason like that, but I don't know.

[Rob Boudrie]

There is no easy answer to the "equality" question.

Consider the case of a very complex stage. If all shooters have a chance to look it over the day before they shoot (outside of hours), even the first shooter will have had plenty of time to study the course. If the stage is completely hidden from the shooter until an official 5 minute walk-thorugh, the first shooter will be at a disadvantage.

[RKooi]

I agree Rob. My point is that there is no way to completely hide the stage from the shooters. I am a shooter first, not just an RO or stage creator. Did I look at stages before my scheduled shooting time? Absolutely. If I can do it then everyone should be able to if they wish.

[XRe]

Roger - the matches I've RO'ed at where stage access was limited, I still had roughly the same time on the stages as the shooters. We put the targets up on a couple of stages before we shot, but in order to get the whole match done that day, we didn't have *time* to screw around on each stage.

I don't really care one way or the other about this - I was just relating what I'd experienced and how it had been justified to me in the past.

[RKooi]

Hi Dave,

I spent the better part of two days hauling props, setting targets and getting things ready to go. Friday was shooting from 8am until 7:30pm (we had to reshoot a stage.) Before I left on Thursday evening I got a chance to look at a couple of the other stages. I chose to walk my weary body around (not real far mind you) and look at a couple. That option will always be there. Since some of the shooters can do it (anyone can volunteer) then all the shooters should be allowed to preview the stages if they choose.

[eric nielsen]

This is a big can of worms and I'm glad Carina opened it.

Edited May 16, 2005 by caspian28r

[EricW]

Goofy and silly.

[10mmdave]

Isn't the spirit of this rule simply to keep approaching squads and off schedule shooters from getting on the stage while the current squad is shooting?  That has been a big problem, and it really pisses me off to have to dodge the next squad and other passers-by while trying to work through the stage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Big Ditto from me on the above, next inline squad should be off the range untill

it's their time. RO needs to disapline (sp)

[itento]

I shot the Area 6 on Friday and watched many of the squads on Saturday thought the match was run exceptionally well. When I arrived Thursday night to register, the yellow tape was up but there were no paper targets up anyway. They were not put up until Friday morning right before the start. If Sat & Sun shooters were allowed to walk through the stages on Friday night, it could be construed they were gaining an advantage over the Friday shooters.

IMO the 5 minutes allowed at each stage was ample time even for those that try to chorograph each foot step and shooting posotion throughout the stage. Typically, what I observed was of a 12 person squad, all would walk through a couple of times (on the long, complicated stages there would be a continous line from start to finish that would continue to wrap around), and then half would continue rehersals for a couple more rounds, with one or two continuing up to the very last second). The on deck shooters were the only shooters allowed to do a final rehersal during taping/setting.

I guess there are some competitors that would reherse for an hour if you let them, but the above method sure seemed fair to all and let things stay on a very tight schedule (12 shooters through each stage every 30 minutes).

[BritinUSA]

If you allow people to preview the stage before the match starts, do you let them activate poppers and swingers ? The rule is there to prevent the shooter mucking around and potentially damaging props. The RO's are not normally on the stage before the match starts (otherwise they have to sit there all day), so there is no-one to make sure that stuff is not moved, broken or tampered with. It seems reasonable to me.

With regards to the walk-through. At a typical World Shoot there will be anything from 15-20+ people on a squad. You have 5 minutes to walk-through, no exceptions. The RO's will have a stop watch !

The best plan of attack is to let the first three walkthrough, then after each shooter as shot the next shooter (on deck) can walk through. That way everyone gets a clear run at it.

[RKooi]

There are no scheduling conflicts when the ranges are free of shooters; like Thursday or Friday evening. If the ranges are available to everyone during the down time everyone has an equal opportunity to be at an advantage if that is the perception.

I don't think the props should be touched. Walk the stage all you like just don't touch or activate props.

[Shooter Grrl]

I didn't like their interpretation of this rule at all. I just don't understand the logic behind it. As the RO on a stage, I'm perfectly capable of controlling the flow and kicking people off that don't belong there. Everyone was really well behaved, came up and asked permission to walk through it when it was empty. Under those circumstances, I had absolutely no heartburn over letting them (that is until we got "talked to")

By not allowing the shooters to preview, I believe the match officials negatively effected the outcome of this match! (Right Carina )

[mactiger]

As most people have said here, the intent of this rule (8.7.5) is to allow match organizers to keep competitors off the stages if they wish, not to require them to do so. There are times that it's not advisable to have competitors walking through the stage, such as when you are: a) turning it around for the next match (e.g. Back to Back Nationals), or repairing it, or just finishing up with target placement, etc. All of which should be done prior to competitors being on the range, anyway, I know, but s**t happens. OR allowing a squad their walk-through time, either before they begin to shoot or during that time, when the on-deck shooter is playing. I agree with Dave Re--it's damn rude for someone not even in the squad to just jump in and have a look, and that's one good thing about this rule--it has enough teeth that hopefully "squad jumping" can be prevented, or at least acted upon.

Since I wasn't there, I won't comment on the A6 rulings, but I can assure you that competitors will have free run of the stages, as in the past, at this year's handgun Nationals, with a few exceptions. You won't be allowed to activate or play with activated props (that's always been the case), and we may be closed to competitors for the turnaround day, to reset the stages. If that's the case, we'll make sure that closing and opening times are known. Also, if someone does squad jump, the RO's will be watching for that. We've had complaints about it in the past.

I know that at some past Nationals, the range was closed to competitors until the first day of competition. Since we started doing registration, etc., out on the range for the most part, it doesn't make sense to do that any more, so the stages are generally open to all once registration begins. There are always a few people who show up really early, but that has it's own disadvantages: we are likely to put you to work pounding stakes or hanging banners.

As for the plane thing, I've been working Nats since 1993, and I never heard that story. Not that it couldn't have happened, but I think it's urban legend.

Troy

[XRe]

As for the plane thing, I've been working Nats since 1993, and I never heard that story.  Not that it couldn't have happened, but I think it's urban legend. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've always wondered about that Kind of a fun story, though.... why anyone would want to fly over stages to look at them is beyond me, anyway - I mean, you're not going to get any real idea of what they look like that way..... I can just see Andy Hollar driving out to the airport to deliver match DQs, though - gives me a little giggle....

[mactiger]

If it did happen, it was probably someone jerking Andy's chain....damn, wish I'd have thought of that.

Troy

[GENE S]

I do know that back in 88, 89, 90, Im not sure which year it was, that a group of shooters came in and took pictures of all of the stages, then went to a range close by and set it all up for practice. Needles to say they all did very good that year. After that, you were not able to walk the range at the nationals before the match begun.

Gene

[J.L. Hardy]

I think we all know that some folks can be downright inconsiderate when barging in on a squads limited time to look over a stage and fooling with props should never be allowed. This rule can serve a purpose to eliminate this type of misconduct from happening. I also think we need to remember that in order for this fine sport of ours to grow we need to be both shooter and spectator friendly. I personally know of a club that we all used to love to go to to attend matches at that became notorious for being shooter and spectator unfriendly, going so far as to not allow anyone to film shooters unless they were shooting with the squad. That club no longer has any major matches. Maybe that was their goal, but that type of attitude does nothing for the sport. I have shot for the last several years and this was the first time in the southeast that I can remember that shooters and spectators were prohibited from entering stages during down time and that minor inconvenience was unpleasant to me. The rest of the match was great, though. Good shooting JLH

[markm]

The RO's were as accomodating as could be, and when we showed up on Friday, we asked during down time, (squad breaks on stages and lunch), and were given permission to walk thru 2 stages before the wrath of R**** decended on the RO's. That is what I felt bad about. No where was it posted that you could not preview the stages ( as at every other match I have attended in the last 4 yrs.) and the RO's on the stages we asked permission of, did not know either. If it had been posted that we could not look at the stages, we would not have asked, and would have stayed away untill the sign up time.

BTW many, many, thanks to the RO's, pasters and steel setters, for a great match! These people made the match special.