10.5.9 sight picture and dropping hammer during LMR command

[ChuckS]

9 minutes ago, wgj3 said:

I'm intrigued by this discussion. Some of the folk who tend to be such sticklers to the rules/rulebook seem to be trying to blow off the OP's question by saying that because they see it occasionally and some M's and GM's do it, so it's ok. 

 

OP is questioning the fact that a shooter is fingering the trigger DURING the loading process.

Obviously the shooter in question had not truly completed "loading" his pistol because he manipulated it further before holstering it, so he was fingering during loading.

Another part of the rulebook says that the pistol is "loaded" once a loaded mag is inserted, so it would be ok to finger trigger as long as it doesn't go bang.

What's the answer and justification?

My POV: Loading is an action, right? Pistol example. The shooter puts the mag (containing ammo) in the pistol. By definition, the gun is now loaded. But with the conflict in the definition of loading, the shooter has not completed the loading process. The next step would be to rack the slide and chamber the round. So, if there is a pause between these two actions, does that mean that the shooter is still loading, or simply that they haven't  completed the process?

My call: if the shooter has a finger on the trigger while inserting a mag or racking the slide, DQ. If the shooter is not performing an action related to performing the load, no DQ.

 

 

 

[Sarge]

16 minutes ago, wgj3 said:

I'm intrigued by this discussion. Some of the folk who tend to be such sticklers to the rules/rulebook seem to be trying to blow off the OP's question by saying that because they see it occasionally and some M's and GM's do it, so it's ok. 

 

OP is questioning the fact that a shooter is fingering the trigger DURING the loading process.

Obviously the shooter in question had not truly completed "loading" his pistol because he manipulated it further before holstering it, so he was fingering during loading.

Another part of the rulebook says that the pistol is "loaded" once a loaded mag is inserted, so it would be ok to finger trigger as long as it doesn't go bang.

What's the answer and justification?

I consider myself one of those sticklers.

I contend the loading process is halted or paused between inserting the mag and racking one into the chamber. I do indeed see a contradiction in the wording that's been pointed out but I don't see anything that says the loading process must be completed in one fell swoop without pausing.

[Sarge]

16 minutes ago, wgj3 said:

I'm intrigued by this discussion. Some of the folk who tend to be such sticklers to the rules/rulebook seem to be trying to blow off the OP's question by saying that because they see it occasionally and some M's and GM's do it, so it's ok. 

 

OP is questioning the fact that a shooter is fingering the trigger DURING the loading process.

Obviously the shooter in question had not truly completed "loading" his pistol because he manipulated it further before holstering it, so he was fingering during loading.

Another part of the rulebook says that the pistol is "loaded" once a loaded mag is inserted, so it would be ok to finger trigger as long as it doesn't go bang.

What's the answer and justification?

I consider myself one of those sticklers.

I contend the loading process is halted or paused between inserting the mag and racking one into the chamber. I do indeed see a contradiction in the wording that's been pointed out but I don't see anything that says the loading process must be completed in one fell swoop without pausing.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm on the same page as Chuck and Kevin.....

[MikeBurgess]

I think this is another situation where the definitions section of the rule book has jumped in and changed the original meaning of one of the rules.
If the original meaning of this rule did not include the entire make ready procedure (load and make ready at that time) then there would have been no reason to have specific exemptions for Hammer less revolvers (to check spin the cylinder) and DA gun to decock. But with the definition of loading being so specific the rule has been reinterpreted and the exemptions are now of no use.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[andrewtac]

When I shot production with a Shadow, I would do this all the time.  I would load a mag then take DA dry fires on my first target.  After reading the sections in question my thoughts were I was doing this during the "loading" process and someone could DQ me so I stopped.  However, I didn't think about it being two separate loading events.  Step one put the mag in the gun; now it is loaded (1st loading event) and I am no longer loading if I do some dry fire; then to complete my make ready I chamber a round; now I am loading again (2nd loading event).  From my understanding now, it is legal.    You could make ready with one continuous loading event or two separate and distinct events; correct?

[HDGoose]

I'm not sure why someone would want to do their dry trigger pulls after inserting the mag, and it seems like a great way to start an unwanted (and probably unnecessary) conversation with the RO, but it appears to be a gray area in the rule book. Might be a good question for someone from NROI.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[HDGoose]

I'm not sure why someone would want to do their dry trigger pulls after inserting the mag,


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thought about it some more and maybe they prefer the mag in for consistent weight?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[grapemeister]

I'm probably beating a dead horse, but I just don't see the contradiction or gray area.  The rules, Section 8.1 and A3 specifically,  seem clear to me in that inserting a loaded magazine into a gun meets the definition of a loaded gun when making ready for a stage.   Although the normal ready condition is for a round to be in the chamber, section 8.1 goes on to clarify that a shooter has met the requirements of a loaded gun start even if the shooter failed to load a round into the chamber....A3 supports that part, too, the loaded gun part. 

The definitions in A3 for the words "loading" and "loaded firearm" do not require a round to be in the chamber in order to meet the definition of either word....this is key in the argument.

So,  if a stage requires a loaded start, and I choose to load a magazine and not chamber a round, the loading process is over for me....I've loaded the gun and met the requirements according to 8.1 and my gun is considered loaded according to the definition under A3 for a loaded firearm.

If I choose to chamber a round later in the make ready, I'm not continuing the loading process. The gun was/is already loaded.  Chambering a round is just chambering a round at that point and only a continuation of the make ready process.

Hope that makes some kind of since.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by grapemeister

[andrewtac]

6 hours ago, HDGoose said:

Thought about it some more and maybe they prefer the mag in for consistent weight?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Correct.

[CalTeacher]

9 hours ago, grapemeister said:

I'm probably beating a dead horse, but I just don't see the contradiction or gray area.  The rules, Section 8.1 and A3 specifically,  seem clear to me in that inserting a loaded magazine into a gun meets the definition of a loaded gun when making ready for a stage.   Although the normal ready condition is for a round to be in the chamber, section 8.1 goes on to clarify that a shooter has met the requirements of a loaded gun start even if the shooter failed to load a round into the chamber....A3 supports that part, too, the loaded gun part. 

The definitions in A3 for the words "loading" and "loaded firearm" do not require a round to be in the chamber in order to meet the definition of either word....this is key in the argument.

So,  if a stage requires a loaded start, and I choose to load a magazine and not chamber a round, the loading process is over for me....I've loaded the gun and met the requirements according to 8.1 and my gun is considered loaded according to the definition under A3 for a loaded firearm.

If I choose to chamber a round later in the make ready, I'm not continuing the loading process. The gun was/is already loaded.  Chambering a round is just chambering a round at that point and only a continuation of the make ready process.

Hope that makes some kind of since.

 

 

Here's why I would disagree.  The definition for loading states the following (emphasis mine):  "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire."

How can a gun be ready to fire without a round in the chamber?  Slide forward and cylinder closed should mean that a round is ready to be discharged without further action beyond disengaging a safety. Or am I wrong?  Do we load revolvers with one empty chamber?

Since 10.5.9 states this "Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer," it would seem to follow logically that the definition of loading from A3 would come into play.  Thus, since the loading process is not complete, as per the definition of A3, a person who puts their finger inside the trigger guard under the circumstances described in the OP could be subject to a DQ.  

 

At least this is the way I'm reading it.  

 

[motosapiens]

On 9/24/2016 at 10:03 PM, CalTeacher said:

If the loading procedure is completed when the gun is in battery and ready to fire, and the shooter pulls the trigger after a loaded magazine has been inserted into the magwell, but before the loading procedure is complete, is that not during the loading procedure?

I would say no, it is not during the loading procedure. The shooter has paused the loading procedure and has now proceeded to a sight picture procedure. The shooter can then chamber a round, holster, and get ready to make some racket.

If your interpretation of the rules were correct, you would also have to dq shooters who don't seat their mag fully and then fire a round and go to slidelock, because they haven't completed the reloading procedure before putting their finger back in the trigger guard. But we don't do that. Because that would be dumb.

In general, I would advise against trying to come up with a tortured explanation for why we shouldn't be able to something many many people have been doing for years under the current rules. If everyone has been legally doing it, but it seems wrong in your interpretation of the rules, then it's safe to say that your interpretation of the rules is not the generally accepted one.

Edited September 26, 2016 by motosapiens

[ChuckS]

14 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

I'm on the same page as Chuck and Kevin.....

Group hug.

[grapemeister]

1 hour ago, CalTeacher said:

Here's why I would disagree.  The definition for loading states the following (emphasis mine):  "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire."

How can a gun be ready to fire without a round in the chamber?  Slide forward and cylinder closed should mean that a round is ready to be discharged without further action beyond disengaging a safety. Or am I wrong?  Do we load revolvers with one empty chamber?

Since 10.5.9 states this "Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer," it would seem to follow logically that the definition of loading from A3 would come into play.  Thus, since the loading process is not complete, as per the definition of A3, a person who puts their finger inside the trigger guard under the circumstances described in the OP could be subject to a DQ.  

 

At least this is the way I'm reading it.  

 

I can kind of understand how that doesn't make since, as far as a gun being in battery and ready to fire without a round in the chamber, but the definition does not say that a round has to be in the chamber.  The gun can also be in battery and ready to fire with a dummy round, an empty case, a squib load, a loaded round with a bad or already fired primer, etc.,etc. 

Edit to add:  Inserted or the act of inserting is all that is required to meet the definition for both "loaded firearm" and "loading".  Again, neither one says that a round has to be in the chamber.   

 

 

Edited September 26, 2016 by grapemeister

[CalTeacher]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I would say no, it is not during the loading procedure. The shooter has paused the loading procedure and has now proceeded to a sight picture procedure. The shooter can then chamber a round, holster, and get ready to make some racket.

If your interpretation of the rules were correct, you would also have to dq shooters who don't seat their mag fully and then fire a round and go to slidelock, because they haven't completed the reloading procedure before putting their finger back in the trigger guard. But we don't do that. Because that would be dumb.

In general, I would advise against trying to come up with a tortured explanation for why we shouldn't be able to something many many people have been doing for years under the current rules. If everyone has been legally doing it, but it seems wrong in your interpretation of the rules, then it's safe to say that your interpretation of the rules is not the generally accepted one.

I don't think this is a tortured explanation.  How can an RO tell if a magazine has not been seated fully, or if the magazine was dislodged by inadvertently touching the mag release?  

If you inserted a magazine during a slidelock reload and placed your finger in the trigger before releasing the slide would you be DQ'd?  Maybe.  Could you argue that you were pausing the reloading procedure?  I don't know.

The definition of loading doesn't specify that there are different steps with pauses between during the loading procedure.  It only states when it starts and when it is considered complete.

 I also understand that many people have seen this done commonly and they don't see an issue with it, but I've seen a lot of things done commonly that aren't in accordance with USPSA rules.  I'll see if I can get a ruling from NROI on this and if I'm wrong then great, I learned something and I have a better understanding of something that will help me be a more effective RO.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, CalTeacher said:

if I'm wrong then great,

agreed.

not sure why you would need a ruling from nroi tho. the rules seem pretty clear to me, and you are just ignoring the parts that don't fit your explanation. 

[IHAVEGAS]

For what it is worth, I've been there a few times when the head honcho was needed to make a decision at a level 2 match.

What I have seen is that when there is room for doubt, because of technicalities of the language or whatever, horse sense is employed and a decision is made based upon intent or practicality. 

[grapemeister]

I don't blame anyone for questioning the rules and procedures.  In the past there have been rules and procedures that I wasn't able to wrap my brain around, but over time and with additional experience they came to make since.  Actually, there are still rules that I don't get or totally get.  Some don't make since, and some are making more since as time goes on.  

I wouldn't bother Troy with this, but if that is what it takes to get a better understanding, then I can't really blame you.

[Sandbagger123]

Send your concern to Troy plead your case with him to enforce what you think is correct.   if he agrees with you, seeing that open and limited nats are this week lets see how many go home early because of this 

Edited September 26, 2016 by Sandbagger123

[CalTeacher]

37 minutes ago, grapemeister said:

I don't blame anyone for questioning the rules and procedures.  In the past there have been rules and procedures that I wasn't able to wrap my brain around, but over time and with additional experience they came to make since.  Actually, there are still rules that I don't get or totally get.  Some don't make since, and some are making more since as time goes on.  

I wouldn't bother Troy with this, but if that is what it takes to get a better understanding, then I can't really blame you.

I won't bother him with this right now before nationals, but as I've gotten a few people to agree with is that there appears to be contradictory information in the definitions of a "loaded gun" and "loading" to where under 10.5.9 during the make ready procedure, a person doing what I saw over the weekend may get dq'd.  I'd rather not see someone get dq'd, and as an RO I'd like to be able to make a definitive call on this that relies more on "here's exactly what the rulebook says and means" vs. "I see people do it all the time, who cares."

 

Either way, I've actually learned quite a bit on this subject from this discussion.  Cheers

[racerba]

Calteacher
Definition of loading from appendix A3:  The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire.
 

Once the magazine is inserted, and the firearm is in battery...the loading is completed...no where in the rule does it say you have to rack the slide...

the definition between "loaded gun" and "loading" refers to two different situations...to satisfy two different requirements...

"Loading" is the act of replenishing your firearms...you can load your gun with a round in the chamber without having to rack the slide...so by your definition, if a competitor drops a magazine during the CoF and insert another one and then proceed to shoot, he should be DQ because he didn't rack the slide...therefore he did not complete the "loading" process?

"loaded gun" refers to the condition of the gun for a start position or other allowable or DQable offenses...

[CalTeacher]

38 minutes ago, racerba said:

Calteacher
Definition of loading from appendix A3:  The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted and firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed), and ready to fire.
 

Once the magazine is inserted, and the firearm is in battery...the loading is completed...no where in the rule does it say you have to rack the slide...

the definition between "loaded gun" and "loading" refers to two different situations...to satisfy two different requirements...

"Loading" is the act of replenishing your firearms...you can load your gun with a round in the chamber without having to rack the slide...so by your definition, if a competitor drops a magazine during the CoF and insert another one and then proceed to shoot, he should be DQ because he didn't rack the slide...therefore he did not complete the "loading" process?

"loaded gun" refers to the condition of the gun for a start position or other allowable or DQable offenses...

I'm afraid you're incorrect.  Reloading is the act of replenishing your firearm.  Loading is a distinct procedure.  During a course of fire as you described the shooter would be reloading their firearm if they are replenishing it with additional ammunition.

If, during the loading procedure, you do not rack the slide, or close the cylinder, then a round is not in the chamber and is not ready to fire.  This is what I'm referring to.  The "loading" process as described in A3 begins with the insertion of ammunition and is completed with the cylinder being closed or the slide in batter and ready to fire.  

 

At least, that's how I read it.

[racerba]

You are correct..."loading" and reloading" are two distinct actions.  However, the rule groups them together as one type of action.  Loading does NOT  require you to rack the slide...no where in the rule does it require you rack the slide...

The competitor can insert the mag and reholster if he wants to...therefore he completed his load.  and if he forgets to rack the slide during the make ready, as an RO - you are not require to, nor should you, tell him that they forgot to rack the slide.  Or, in some cases, the start position is with an empty chamber...

now...if you want to get into symantics...the command is "make ready" not "LOAD and make ready"...therefore, the competitor is not technically making his gun "ready to fire"...he is just making his gun "ready"...loaded or not...so therefore he has completed his make ready and his "load" is complete when he inserted the magazine...

I don't know why this conversation has gone on for so long...you asked the question, and the answer has been given - "no DQ".  Just because it doesn't agree with your judgement/call does not make it wrong...you are trying to make your call the right one...it's not...

Edited September 26, 2016 by racerba

[motosapiens]

12 minutes ago, racerba said:

The competitor can insert the mag and reholster if he wants to...therefore he completed his load.  and if he forgets to rack the slide during the make ready, as an RO - you are not require to, nor should you, tell him that they forgot to rack the slide.

excellent point. In fact this just happened yesterday to a good friend of mine. Under calteacher's interpretation, we would have to dq him since he put his finger in the trigger guard before he 'completed loading'. But of course that would be dumb.

[Racinready300ex]

So with this new interpretation...Let say a limited shooter fires 21 rounds, hits his reload on the move to the next position.  At the next position goes to fire and gets a click. DQ, finger on the trigger during a reload. That is the exact same situation as the OP just farther along in the shooters run.