Stage question re: no more than 8 shots required

[JAFO]

I was watching the first PCC video from this thread in the USPSA Shooting forum:

I had a question on the Stage titled "Again?", which can be seen at the 1:12 mark in the video.  It only shows the stage from right behind the shooter, so I can't see the starting position, but it appears that it's comprised of 2 shooting boxes with 8 paper targets and a plate rack for 22 rounds total.  4 of the paper targets must be taken from the first position, the other 4 must be taken from the second position.  The plate rack can be taken from either position.  My question is whether this design would violate rule 1.2.1.3 requiring no more than 8 shots from a single location and/or view.  Although the plate rack can be taken from either position, there are already 8 forced shots from each of the two positions on the paper targets.  So no matter which position you choose for the rack, you will have to fire more than 8 shots from that position.  Does that violate 1.2.1.3?

[CHA-LEE]

That is an illegal stage. You can't require more than 8 rounds from any one position. That stage only has 2 shooting positions that forces the shooter to engage 8 or 14 rounds worth of targets from either box. That stage could have been made legal by simply having a shooting area between the two boxes.

I don't understand why its so hard for some clubs to make legal stages. Its really not hard at all if you think about it a little bit.

[Nathanb]

To follow up on this. If there was a position that allowed for the targets to be engaged in the middle like stated that would be legal based on what was said. I had always been told that no more than 8shots could be visible from any position as I read the rule book I realized that they could be visible as long as they were capable of being engaged from other positions. Is my comprehension of that correct?  Doesn't matter if they get shot from other positions as long as they are not forced to shoot more than 8 at one position

[MikeBurgess]

That is correct you may not force a shooter to shoot more than 8 from a location, but it is fine for there to be more avaliable actually having more avaliable is what give shooters options in how they shoot a stage.
From a legal stage point of view there just has to be some way to complete the stage without shooting more than 8 from a view or location,

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[grapemeister]

Well, after the 2nd time watching the video, I finally see the problem.   Either the 1st or 2nd position would require a minimum of 14 rounds with the  plate rack and four paper...which of course would make it illegal.

Edited September 25, 2016 by grapemeister
Finally watched the video

[Dr Mitch]

8 shots max per view.  Very easy guideline.

[grapemeister]

37 minutes ago, Dr Mitch said:

8 shots max per view.  Very easy guideline.

That's not really the rule, though.  For example, if there are 5 targets requiring two shots per target visible from a shooting position but at least one of the targets is available from a different location, then it would be legal.  

Edited September 25, 2016 by grapemeister

[Thomas H]

42 minutes ago, Dr Mitch said:

8 shots max per view.  Very easy guideline.

That's not the guideline, though.  "Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view" is the guideline, and that is a very different thing.

Often, having multiple targets available from multiple views makes for a MUCH more interesting stage.  Example:  the first stage in the video linked in the third post from the thread mentioned in the OP has only two shooting areas.  However, in each shooting area you can shoot left of the wall, right of the wall, and through a port in the wall.  There are 21 required rounds on the stage.  (6 plates on posts, 1 Texas Star, 5 paper.)    This was a legal stage---because even though there are only two shooting areas, there are multiple views and shooters can make quite a few choices regarding shooting around the sides of various walls in addition to through the ports.  A number of targets were visible from multiple locations.

Legal stage.  Definitely not 8 shots max per view.

 

[CHA-LEE]

The verbiage you need to understand is the "require" in that rule. It is perfectly legal to have a shooting position that allows a shooter to engage more that 8 rounds worth of targets. But you can't Require a shooter to engage more than 8 rounds worth of targets from a single position. 

This is where shooters get confused with this rule because the best stage plan may have them engaging more than 8 rounds worth of targets from one position but there is really nothing forcing them to do that other than it being a competitive advantage.

The best way to interpret this rule is thinking of it in a way that you are forced into engaging more than 8 rounds of targets from a single position because the targets can't be engaged in an alternate position. 

The stage in question is doing just that. You only have two choices of quantity of targets to engage in either position. 8 rounds worth or 14 rounds. Regardless of shooting the 14 rounds from the back position or front you are still forced to engage too many rounds worth of targets from any one shooting position.

[pjb45]

I have seen a couple of stages in our matches which push the limits of the 'required rule.'

Quick example: Position 1: 6 paper targets are available two of which can be seen from Position 2 which also has 4 paper targets for a total of 6 visible.

The excuse was 'well you can shoot the two from the other position so it is a legal stage.

Faulty logic: if I shoot my required 8 shots from position 1 and shoot my required 8 shots from position 2 then two targets are not shot.

[d_striker]

On 9/24/2016 at 6:48 PM, Dr Mitch said:

8 shots max per view.  Very easy guideline.

Unless it's a speed shoot.

[Dr Mitch]

On September 24, 2016 at 7:48 PM, Dr Mitch said:

8 shots max per view.  Very easy guideline.

8 shots max required per view.  Very easy guideline.

Ever tried Coke Bran?  Pat McNamara eats two bowls full every morning.

[MikeBurgess]

On 9/26/2016 at 8:50 PM, pjb45 said:

I have seen a couple of stages in our matches which push the limits of the 'required rule.'

Quick example: Position 1: 6 paper targets are available two of which can be seen from Position 2 which also has 4 paper targets for a total of 6 visible.

The excuse was 'well you can shoot the two from the other position so it is a legal stage.

Faulty logic: if I shoot my required 8 shots from position 1 and shoot my required 8 shots from position 2 then two targets are not shot.

that not pushing the limit that is just illegal,

Pushing the limit is one we had a few years ago, position 1 had 4 paper (2per) and 1 popper from position 2 one of the paper from position 1 was visible along with 3 new paper and 1 popper so from each position you could see 4 paper and 1 popper only one of the paper was visible from both. to get 8 from each view you had to shoot 1 on the common paper from each location. 

[PatJones]

The 8 round rule really only effects the low capacity divisions. That said, I think being creative, but legal, with that rule makes for more interesting stages.

[MemphisMechanic]

Agreed. To a point.

Give Limited  and Open shooters options. But also give Single-Stack at least one way to shoot it without slogging through multiple flat-footed reloads.

 

The rule book requires the latter, but it doesn't prohibit the former.

Edited September 29, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[d_striker]

12 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

that not pushing the limit that is just illegal,

 

It's tough reaching that conclusion without seeing the stage.  

Can any of the targets in question be seen between position 1 and 2 or at any other point in the COF?  If so, not illegal.  

[mreed911]

56 minutes ago, d_striker said:

It's tough reaching that conclusion without seeing the stage.  

Can any of the targets in question be seen between position 1 and 2 or at any other point in the COF?  If so, not illegal.  

If the only two shooting positions are 1 and 2 and not in between then it doesn't matter.

[d_striker]

1 hour ago, mreed911 said:

If the only two shooting positions are 1 and 2 and not in between then it doesn't matter.

If we are talking about a stage using two shooting boxes, then I agree with that. 

Is that how the stage was laid out or are you assuming?

[mreed911]

8 minutes ago, d_striker said:

If we are talking about a stage using two shooting boxes, then I agree with that. 

Is that how the stage was laid out or are you assuming?

From the OP:

On 9/23/2016 at 2:41 PM, JAFO said:

it appears that it's comprised of 2 shooting boxes with 8 paper targets and a plate rack for 22 rounds total.  4 of the paper targets must be taken from the first position, the other 4 must be taken from the second position.  The plate rack can be taken from either position. 

...

Although the plate rack can be taken from either position, there are already 8 forced shots from each of the two positions on the paper targets.  So no matter which position you choose for the rack, you will have to fire more than 8 shots from that position.

There are two shooting positions defined for this stage.  No assumptions, just reading.

[MikeBurgess]

12 hours ago, d_striker said:

It's tough reaching that conclusion without seeing the stage.  

Can any of the targets in question be seen between position 1 and 2 or at any other point in the COF?  If so, not illegal.  

this was a comment on a theoretical stage described in the post above it

[d_striker]

10 hours ago, mreed911 said:

From the OP:

There are two shooting positions defined for this stage.  No assumptions, just reading.

 

No...The original post and the one you're commenting on are two different scenarios.  OP is two boxes.  

The second one is from a different poster.  

Read harder.

Edited September 29, 2016 by d_striker

[d_striker]

On 9/26/2016 at 9:50 PM, pjb45 said:

I have seen a couple of stages in our matches which push the limits of the 'required rule.'

Quick example: Position 1: 6 paper targets are available two of which can be seen from Position 2 which also has 4 paper targets for a total of 6 visible.

The excuse was 'well you can shoot the two from the other position so it is a legal stage.

Faulty logic: if I shoot my required 8 shots from position 1 and shoot my required 8 shots from position 2 then two targets are not shot.

Not the OP...

[jkrispies]

19 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Give Limited  and Open shooters options. But also give Single-Stack at least one way to shoot it without slogging through multiple flat-footed reloads.

+1

As a SS shooter, if I'm required to do even one flat footed reload, I'm not going to leave that match with a good impression. 

[andrewtac]

2 minutes ago, jkrispies said:

+1

As a SS shooter, if I'm required to do even one flat footed reload, I'm not going to leave that match with a good impression. 

+2, frustrations of shooting SS. 

[PatJones]

+1

As a SS shooter, if I'm required to do even one flat footed reload, I'm not going to leave that match with a good impression. 

Requiring more than 8 is against the rules. However, if I can save myself from creating another position, it usually makes sense to do a standing reload.