CrashDodson Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Its not about being popular, its about winning. I have seen comments from people that have run stats for USPSA Major matches including nationals for over a decade. You cant be fast enough to make up the points your missing out on. Here is a comment from a gentlemen that has run stats for over 17 years "You can't be fast enough to make up for the points lost. I've run the data through EzWinScore multiple times after a match to see how it would have impacted the results. Minor always loses." The slight difference in capacity and slight reduction in recoil is not enough to compensate for those B/C's and occasional D's Since glock only had 10% of the share at last years limited nationals I don't think that would be the popular choice either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 37 minutes ago, Pistolpete9 said: Your math is flawed. You assumed that they would lose points because they are shooting minor, but wouldn't gain any speed or be more accurate at the same speed. In other words, you calculated the cons and weighed them against nothing. You then went on to say that by shooting minor people will automatically slow down in their quest to be more accurate. More flawed math, but this time you compounded it ( because now you're saying that the person is already at a disadvantage points wise but it will ALSO slow them down!). Do you think that if we were allowed to shoot .22 and score minor that the rimfire folks would be slower than the major crowd because they are shooting too accurately? People love statistics because they think that they are fact. I can make statistics say anything I want. It's about knowing your math. The point of every shot taken should be to hit the intended target. Saying to someone that if they are getting 90% alphas, they are going too slow is akin to telling your kid that if they are getting A's in all of their classes they are spending too much time on schoolwork. A further point that I would make is that when you are talking about those GM's getting 74% alphas, they routinely shoot much more complex courses with more swingers and obstructed targets than most local level clubs even have access to. Let one of them shoot a little local level match and watch them burn it down with 90% alphas. Again, I'm not saying that any one caliber is the correct choice. I'm saying the opposite. Let's stop propagating the myth that only one caliber can reign supreme and the rest are a waste of time and money. I think the bold part is wrong IMO. A good shooter can control recoil well enough that going from major to minor will not gain them much if any speed or accuracy. In fact it will probably cost them speed, as you know that C's hurt more so you will back of just a bit. At the top level, those guys are shooting a gun about as fast as a gun can be shot. At the end of the day their times will be about the same as they all have similar skills. So the winner will be the guy with the most points. Shooting minor will mean less points. This will be true for anyone shooting against others of a similar skill level. I think your approach to the sport is really going to limit how far you can go. The winner isn't the guy with the most A's, it's the guy with the highest hit factor. That is speed and accuracy. You come across like you are leaving off one side of the equation, that's fine if that is what you want to do. You can laugh at that fast guy and call him a hoser if that helps you when he beats you. But at the end of the day you need the highest hit factor. Your comparing shooting 90% A's to a kid getting all A's is school is flawed too. It's more like the kid got A's just in the classes he thought were fun, but got C's and D's in the other classes. Maybe that kid needs to work on the classes he doesn't like. For you that class is probably speed, sounds like you're passing the accuracy class because that is the class you enjoy the most. We all like practicing the things we're good at, the good shooters practice the things they aren't good at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsessiveshooter Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Top shooters are already shooting very small splits with major PF. I seriously doubt they would gain enough speed to overcome the loss of points. Top shooters also spend an unbelievable amount of time working out which, of several ways to do something, will give them an advantage. Don't you think they might have considered shooting minor as well? I'd love it if the people I shoot against took your advice and started shooting limited minor. I think I'll stay with major PF. Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashDodson Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: The winner isn't the guy with the most A's, it's the guy with the highest hit factor. That is speed and accuracy. ^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliteGuard Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 If you are just there to have fun or practicing for 3 gun then don't worry about shooting limited minor, but if you want to be topping the leader boards you need to shoot major. I know for most guns with a base pad extension you will lose ~3 rounds when switching from 9 to 40. I am still new, but so far I have yet to encounter a stage where those 3 extra rounds were an advantage as every stage has had a spot where you can be moving between positions and reloading. I am shooting limited minor right now and I always cringe when I hit anything except an A as I know I will get less points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistolpete9 Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Sweet lord you people can't read! When did I say that everyone should shoot limited minor???? When did I imply that shooting .40 is a bad idea???? Pretty sure that if you read what I said, I clearly noted that .40 is a viable cartridge with plenty of benefits, but what I get in reply is stuff like "Minor loses every time" (tell Nils that btw and make sure you do it with the same amount of certainty that you have right now). And then I get replies about how I'm wrong about minor being faster or more accurate at the same speed.....if that's honestly the case, then I wonder why the Minor/Major scoring difference even exists???? Seems the directors of the sport disagree with you. As far as me being wrong about the grades illustration, please look back at the premise that I started with. Hitting your intended target SHOULD be your first goal every time you pull the trigger. It might not be. But it's my opinion that it should be. And IF you start with that premise than the illustration that follows is indeed correct. And that's what it comes down to. An opinion. People should be allowed to have them, but apparently some struggle with the fact that their opinion might only be an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 2 hours ago, Pistolpete9 said: Your math is flawed. You assumed that they would lose points because they are shooting minor, but wouldn't gain any speed or be more accurate at the same speed.. The point of every shot taken should be to hit the intended target. Saying to someone that if they are getting 90% alphas, they are going too slow is akin to telling your kid that if they are getting A's in all of their classes they are spending too much time on schoolwork. I really don't think you gain any speed shooting minor, at least not a material amount. I don't think my splits are any faster shooting minor and I'm not a big guy and shoot a Glock :). A few weeks ago I decided to try Limited minor just for the heck of it at a local match, I wasn't any faster with it. And I'm not sure how shooting minor would gain you accuracy at the same speed? The flaw with your analogy is that the goal at school is to get the best grades possible, but the goal in USPSA is not to be the most accurate, it's to get the highest hit factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistolpete9 Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 ARRRGGHHHHH!!!! I made the analogy so I get to set the premise! Did I mention USPSA in my analogy? Don't think I did. You put different parameters on what I was saying and then tried to prove me wrong. Again I'll say that if you really couldn't gain any benefit by shooting minor, then why do the directors deem it appropriate to score it differently? Your one bit of untimed anecdotal evidence is not going to change their mind. You gain accuracy at the same speed because you spend less time managing recoil and can therefore spend more time getting the sights on and/or breaking the shot. This isn't a fallacy. It's physics. If you can shoot both at exactly the same speed, then you are apparently being limited by nothing more than cyclic rate because you can perfectly control recoil. I'm not that good. I don't think 99% of shooters are. I see that reasoning and logic are out here. I give up! Screw shooting minor! .40 is the only caliber that the pistol shooting world should have! Where's the kool-aid? How can I get to the front of the line to jump off the cliff? Let's do this! Can't believe I've been shooting my crappy 9mm's all of these years and not being competitive. Time to forget about those wins and get focused on being the best while being like everyone else. Now I'll be a "serious" shooter. COOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Please watch the attitudes. .. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistolpete9 Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Fair enough. I think I've said too much already, so I'll leave it where it is. My apologies for cat fighting on a solid forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 23 minutes ago, Pistolpete9 said: Again I'll say that if you really couldn't gain any benefit by shooting minor, then why do the directors deem it appropriate to score it differently? I never said I agree with this . I actually don't like .40cal much and kinda resent USPSA for making me buy one. I think Limited in USPSA is the only shooting sport where .40 is still at all relevant. I'd rather just shoot 9mm and have only one pistol caliber to load for, but I don't like the scoring disadvantage from shooting Limited Minor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Pistolpete, I agree that less recoil allows you more time on the sights. This is a good thing. Like you said. More time on the sights = more alphas. The disconnect is that you HAVE to spend more time on the sights because of the scoring disadvantage of minor, to be able to shoot the same hit factor as someone shooting major. If your personal goals are to shoot all alphas, then sure. Shoot minor and shoot lots and lots of alphas. Of your goal is to win matches, major is the way to go. The original purpose of major/minor was because the new fangled "wonder nines" back when the game was very young. Back then, when you had literally double the capacity and significanty less recoil compared to a full house 45 if you shot minor, then yes it makes sense to penalize their scoring. Now, when the difference is only 2 rounds between major and minor, the scales have tipped to major.Also, Nils shot major. As did the top 61 other shooters. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistolpete9 Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Nils has won before shooting minor. I was simply stating that saying minor loses every time is not factual. It's fine though. I really am not trying to talk anyone out of .40 and I get their reasoning. I was just hoping to help some shooters out there who thought they HAD to shoot major if they didn't want to be laughed off as a non-competitor. If any of them are still reading this, please don't feel like you are doing yourself any disservice to shoot what you want to shoot. Unless you are sponsored, your main goal should be to have fun and beat your last score. If you get so good that you need to worry about how you stack up to others, my guess is you won't be looking at this article for advice on your next pistol. I am NOT one of the best shooters on this forum and my advice is purely aimed at more practical shooting than super high level competitive stuff. If that's you, maybe I helped. I don't even know that I'll ever make M let alone GM. If you are one of those, than my advice will not pertain to you at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Is there a way to block an entire thread from showing up in the list? This one appears when I come to this section of the forum and I can feel my blood pressure go up every time I see a new reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 37 minutes ago, Pistolpete9 said: Nils has won before shooting minor. I was simply stating that saying minor loses every time is not factual. It's fine though. I really am not trying to talk anyone out of .40 and I get their reasoning. I was just hoping to help some shooters out there who thought they HAD to shoot major if they didn't want to be laughed off as a non-competitor. If any of them are still reading this, please don't feel like you are doing yourself any disservice to shoot what you want to shoot. Unless you are sponsored, your main goal should be to have fun and beat your last score. If you get so good that you need to worry about how you stack up to others, my guess is you won't be looking at this article for advice on your next pistol. I am NOT one of the best shooters on this forum and my advice is purely aimed at more practical shooting than super high level competitive stuff. If that's you, maybe I helped. I don't even know that I'll ever make M let alone GM. If you are one of those, than my advice will not pertain to you at all. I don't know what match your talking about, but Nils probably didn't win because he shot minor. But I guess you're on the right track, if you want to just shoot A's then minor is great. If your goal is to finish as well as you can then minor is probably a bad idea. And recommending minor to someone who doesn't know better isn't really helping them. They may waist 1500 bucks on a gun only to realize reaching their goal may be much harder with minor. Depends what they want to get out of it I guess. I really only posted to get waktasz blood boiling.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayUSPSA81 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 I would say stay with 40. There is a reason it is the dominate caliber for SS nationals. Major scoring and cheaper to load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jliew08 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 I had been debating this for awhile as well. Just shot my first match in Limited Major this past weekend and I can't say enough how much I enjoyed it. I have been shooting production the past two years and it was a welcomed change. I was a little slower than I should have been because I was trying to ensure my A's. But it was a blast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayUSPSA81 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 The biggest factor I think is all the points you lose shooting minor. If you can hit all Alphas then go 9mm otherwise I would stuck with major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 The biggest factor I think is all the points you lose shooting minor. If you can hit all Alphas then go 9mm otherwise I would stuck with major.That's the crux of this entire argument that people keep saying: "If you can hit all alphas then go 9mm." The thing is, you can't. You simply cannot shoot enough extra alphas fast enough to beat those shooting major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayUSPSA81 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 You just answered your own question. That is precisely why 40 is dominant and that is what I advise you to stick with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayUSPSA81 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 If you want to shoot 9mm and have a nice gun shoot production with a CZ. The new CZ are ready to go out of the box. You should be able to get one early spring when they go for sale in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 3 hours ago, RayUSPSA81 said: The biggest factor I think is all the points you lose shooting minor. If you can hit all Alphas then go 9mm otherwise I would stuck with major. If you're shooting all alphas in limited then you're shooting too slow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayUSPSA81 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 That is very true. Fast and loose, haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Oops never mind. I thought this was about ss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, motosapiens said: That is only true at nationals which is carefully set up to make minor non viable. Many area matches were won by minor shooters last year. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Someone won Limited shooting Minor at a Area match? Which one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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