40S&w vs 9mm limited

[anbrumm]

I would go with 40 Major if you want to get the max out of available points. 9 minor is a good option, but just requires much more focus.

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[waktasz]

There was one person who shot minor in the top 50 at Limited Nationals last year and it was Todd Jarrett. I don't know if he shot minor on purpose or missed at the chrono but that seems to be a good enough reason for me.  The guys at the top are shooting Major. Two people in the top 100 shot Minor. 

[Distant Thunder]

On 6/24/2016 at 4:40 PM, Broncos79 said:

What are the pros and cons between each caliber for limited competition?

I'll side with the majority on this one and say go .40. If you reload (or plan to) you can further reduce the difference in felt recoil with powder and projectile choice while still scoring major on non-A zone hits (which is a BIG advantage).

[tmz]

 For some people there on a budget and 9 mm may be a little bit cheaper for them,  for me I choose the 40 caliber also it's nice to be able to tune the  load to the gun you're  shooting,  I think there's a little bit more room in there to do that with the 40 versus the 9 along with the extra points don't hurt.

[brew460]

I'm new to the sport and interested in getting into it.

How is minor and major determined when shoot 40 cal?


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[Quack]

I'm new to the sport and interested in getting into it.

How is minor and major determined when shoot 40 cal?


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Power factor.
 (bullet weight x velocity in FPS)/1000 = PF

If it doesn't meet 165pf, it's minor.
If it doesn't meet 125pf, it's sub- minor.

[brew460]

So when you go to a match how do you prove your ammo meets that criteria?


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[fishsticks]

So when you go to a match how do you prove your ammo meets that criteria?


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Larger matches have a chronograph stage. If there isn't a chrono its the honor system.

[brew460]

Gotcha, thanks for the info.


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[peterthefish]

[emoji287][emoji30][emoji30][emoji883] it'llyur
The.

[anbrumm]

On 10/2/2016 at 7:12 AM, peterthefish said:

it'llyur
The.

Exactly. Was this a pocket type? haha

[peterthefish]

Exactly. Was this a pocket type? haha

Gives new meaning to talking out of my butt.

[DASR4]

You can make major power factor with the 40, but if you are good enough to hit all A's then you need to go with the 9mm since it had less recoil, but i'm not that good!

[waktasz]

Less recoil doesn't matter, You have to shoot slower when shooting Minor to get the points.

[Pistolpete9]

No one will ever say this to you, but the theoretical ceiling for Limited actually lies within the bounds of Minor scoring.  Somebody earlier said that Major scoring offers a 20% increase in points.....that's just really bad math (i'm a math teacher, so it's kinda my thing).  Let me explain what I mean by the "theoretical ceiling".  Minor and Major both offer the same exact points for an Alpha hit.  Minor guns can carry more ammo and will have less recoil.  Therefore, if someone were able to shoot so accurately as to get all alphas, they would be able to connect on their splits a little quicker and have maybe a reload or 2 less.  This means that they would be able to get the maximum points in less time. Of course, this is a theory only because no one can seem to get all alphas while shooting at top speeds.

The problem lies within the fact that most of us shooters prefer to shoot fast. It's flashier, more fun, and gets all the ooh's and ahh's.  If your intent is to find out how accurately you can shoot fast than you will probably end up scoring higher with .40.  If your intent is to find out how fast you can shoot accurately, than you will do better with a 9mm.

I like to buy factory ammo, have less recoil, more capacity, and make sure every freaking shot I take hits the Alpha zone.  I AM NOT, NOR WILL I EVER BE, A NATIONAL LEVEL COMPETITOR!  I know that and enjoy the level I'm at.  Shooting isn't my job.  It's my fun.  I get loads of satisfaction out of shooting a perfect COF.  I have watched plenty of people who take a very long time to complete a COF and yet get all A's.  I always feel like they are being responsible and acknowledging their own ceiling.  I have respect for that.  I have also watched people blaze through a course with amazing speed only to hear an awful lot of Deltas and Mikes getting called out.  The impressed look on people's faces quickly changes to shaking of the head.  Heck I do it to myself.  I've been known to act like an angry child over 1 mike or delta on an otherwise awesome run.  What can I say?  As a shooter, I hate missing my target.  That's just who I am.

I don't think you can't go wrong with either caliber and I have nothing against the .40.  Either can serve you well.  What I don't like is how often I see people advising others to look into major so that they don't have to worry about making accurate hits.  I also am not crazy about shooting sports pushing the "benefits" of .40 over 9mm.  I think that advantage is FAR overemphasized.  That being said, I totally understand the shooters wanting to take advantage of that.  I just don't think that it's a "no-brainer" as is often suggested.  More of a win-win. 

9mm- A win for cheapskates and snipers

.40- A win for Elite shooters and hosers

[zzt]

I'm not sure I agree with all that Pistolpete says.  Here is my take comparing only 40 Minor to 9mm Minor.  If you don't reload, buying 9mm is cheaper than buying 40 Minor.  If you do reload, 40 Minor feels softer than 9mm.  There are other distinct advantages with 40 Minor.  For one, steel hit with a 180gr Minor load goes down way faster than with any 9mm load.  There is no slo-mo fall, and you don't have to hit them high.  That's especially important if the steel activates a swinger or a disappearing target.  You can load lighter bullets at the same PF to fine tune your cycle speed to get the "feel" you want and still knock steel down with dispatch.

BTW, just in case you think I'm a 40 snob- I started with 9mm before switching to 40.  I know 9mm's limitations, and I found them to be a disadvantage.  YMMV.

[Pistolpete9]

Fair enough, but just to illustrate my point, what percentage of alphas do you shoot?  Less than 95? Less than 90?  That would piss me off. Others would say that if you're hitting that many alphas, you're going too slow.

 Also, I've never been waiting for steel to fall for the clock to stop, but maybe that happens to some people.  Like I said, at the elite level I can see why you may really make a case for .40 being the better cartridge for the game, but we're talking about the top 200 shooters in the country at most.  I am not among them. Most other people are simply picking the best cartridge for their own style.

It's funny because I actually think that 3 gun has come up with one of the more sensible scoring systems for pistol with the 1 alpha or 2 anywhere and anything 9mm or up counts the same.  A pistol is a pistol and if you need something that is more powerful to get full points you move to a shotgun or rifle.  It's not perfect but I think there's some sense there.  At the end of the day, you're going to give up something somewhere.  Pick your sport, pick your gun, pick your caliber, HAVE FUN AND GET BETTER!

[kimberacp]

I have shot Limited 40 major for many years and now only starting to venture into 9mm Open.    Now for me, shooting single stack only for a few months out of the year prior to the WSSSC match, it doesn't make sense to load a a different case!    One case size, two divisions.

I do agree on a lot of what Pistolpete9 said...

 

9mm- A win for cheapskates and snipers  

 

.

[peterthefish]

Fair enough, but just to illustrate my point, what percentage of alphas do you shoot?  Less than 95? Less than 90?  That would piss me off. Others would say that if you're hitting that many alphas, you're going too slow.

Shooting 90% of alphas means you're shooting 95%+ of points available unless you're racking up Ds or penalties. If you're shooting more points than that and you're not an elite shooter you are likely moving too slowly to maximize your score. It's not hard to shoot all As on most stages. Doing it quickly on the other hand...

[tmz]

 I think this discussion could go on forever .  You'll just have to try both Guns and give it your personal preference and maybe possible what is more economical and best for you.

[Pistolpete9]

Haha!  I knew somebody would tell me I need to speed up and be less accurate.  Not my style, but to each their own.  

Now I do enjoy shooting fast but only if I can hit what I mean to hit.  That's why I think steel challenge is so much fun.  Much bigger targets generally.

[Southpaw]

A few months ago I got into this debate with someone at lunch after a match over the viability of shooting Limited Minor and still being competitive.  Being the huge nerd that I am, I decided to prove my point with statistics .  I did an analysis of top Limited shooters at major matches, how many points and alphas they shot, and how their scores would have changed had they shot minor.  I included in my analysis the top 3 shooters in Limited for the 2013-2015 Nationals and all 8 area matches of 2015 (I did this earlier in the year before this year's Nats or most area matches).  I stopped the analysis at that point since a clear trend was arising with consistent results across all the top shooters.

On average, the top shooters shot 74% Alphas and 93% of points (excluding penalties).  Had these top shooters chosen to shoot minor instead and got the same hits they would have lost on average 5% of available points. 

To me, this proves that you really aren't going to be competitive shooting Limited Minor.  "Competitive" is often interpreted different ways.  You're certainly not likely to win a major match shooting minor and even just trying to beat your friends at local club matches that are of equal skill as you is going to be a real uphill battle shooting minor.  If you don't care at all about your score, go ahead and shoot minor, but if you don't want to keep getting beat by your friends when you're shooting equally well as them then you should be shooting major .  (Key point there is comparing results to those of equal skill.  I often hear people talk about shooting Limited Minor and placing well at club matches; that's just because you're a better shooter than those you beat though)

I don't agree with the argument that Limited Minor is viable as long as you're really accurate and shoot a lot of alphas.  I think it's safe to say that the top GMs who are winning major matches have figured out what the ideal combo is of accuracy and speed to get the highest hit factor and they've determined it's around 74% alphas.  So if you're shooting 90-95% alphas then you're shooting too slow.  And you're going to be even slower shooting minor while you try to be more accurate.

[Pistolpete9]

Your math is flawed.  You assumed that they would lose points because they are shooting minor, but wouldn't gain any speed or be more accurate at the same speed.  In other words, you calculated the cons and weighed them against nothing.  You then went on to say that by shooting minor people will automatically slow down in their quest to be more accurate.  More flawed math, but this time you compounded it ( because now you're saying that the person is already at a disadvantage points wise but it will ALSO slow them down!).  Do you think that if we were allowed to shoot .22 and score minor that the rimfire folks would be slower than the major crowd because they are shooting too accurately?  People love statistics because they think that they are fact.  I can make statistics say anything I want.  It's about knowing your math.

The point of every shot taken should be to hit the intended target.  Saying to someone that if they are getting 90% alphas, they are going too slow is akin to telling your kid that if they are getting A's in all of their classes they are spending too much time on schoolwork.  

A further point that I would make is that when you are talking about those GM's getting 74% alphas, they routinely shoot much more complex courses with more swingers and obstructed targets than most local level clubs even have access to.  Let one of them shoot a little local level match and watch them burn it down with 90% alphas.

Again, I'm not saying that any one caliber is the correct choice.  I'm saying the opposite.  Let's stop propagating the myth that only one caliber can reign supreme and the rest are a waste of time and money.

[CrashDodson]

Just look at the equipment surveys from limited nationals.  If there wasn't a benefit to shooting 40 you would likely see a more even distribution between 9/40 but instead you see more than 95% shooting major.  . 

[Pistolpete9]

I see.  So the CORRECT answer is "It's the most popular, therefore it is also the best for everyone."  Guess I need to go buy a Glock