Procedurals per shot or per illegal reload

[teros135]

2 hours ago, jhernandez said:

on WSB it is clearly mentioned that it is an unloaded start... RO made the command "Make Ready", shooter loaded his gun then assumed the start position. Should RO allow the shooter to start the COF or he wait until the correct start procedure is followed?

 

No start.  Remind shooter that this is an unloaded start and let them get their gear in order, then start.  

[Gary Stevens]

The reason the start command was changed from "load and make ready" to simply "make ready" was to address this specific issue.

 

An RO should never let a shooter start in the wrong position deliberately and then attempt to penalize the shooter. This is not a got ya sport.

 

Mistaken  start position demands a re-shoot not a penalty.

[GrumpyOne]

On 10/16/2017 at 4:51 PM, motosapiens said:

RO should not start the shooter if the firearm is not in the specified ready condition. (shooter will just get a reshoot, which wastes everyone's time.)

 

note that this doesn't apply if the shooter fails to chamber a round when he is allowed to, but it does apply when the start is specified to be empty and the shooter mistakenly chambers a round.

This got me thinking. In Production, loaded start. Shooter makes ready, but does not rack a round into the chamber (he had 11 rounds in his first mag). Production rules state no more than 10 rounds in a mag after the start signal. Shooter does not realize he did not rack a round into the chamber, so, technically, after the start signal, he has 11 rounds in his mag. By the rules, he should be moved to Open, right? Now, I'm not saying that I would move a shooter to Open for that, but, by the rules...

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, GrumpyOne said:

This got me thinking. In Production, loaded start. Shooter makes ready, but does not rack a round into the chamber (he had 11 rounds in his first mag). Production rules state no more than 10 rounds in a mag after the start signal. Shooter does not realize he did not rack a round into the chamber, so, technically, after the start signal, he has 11 rounds in his mag. By the rules, he should be moved to Open, right? Now, I'm not saying that I would move a shooter to Open for that, but, by the rules...

I would. But only if I can prove without a doubt he had 11 in there. For me that means firing 11 without a reload. I’m willing to count shots but I’m not chasing down a dropped mag.

[GrumpyOne]

55 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I would. But only if I can prove without a doubt he had 11 in there. For me that means firing 11 without a reload. I’m willing to count shots but I’m not chasing down a dropped mag.

And what if he racked the slide, but it didn't pick one up? Shooter thinks he has 10 in the mag, one in the barrel, but actually has 11 in the mag, zero in the barrel? 

 

Think of it this way...what advantage did the shooter gain for not racking one into the chamber? 

I can see moving the shooter for having 11 in a mag, if the start was unloaded, or they fire 12 shots...but on a loaded start, with the chamber empty, the shooter has not gained any advantage. 

[DukeEB]

5 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

And what if he racked the slide, but it didn't pick one up? Shooter thinks he has 10 in the mag, one in the barrel, but actually has 11 in the mag, zero in the barrel? 

He won't be doing much shooting with zero in the barrel lol

[Sarge]

57 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

And what if he racked the slide, but it didn't pick one up? Shooter thinks he has 10 in the mag, one in the barrel, but actually has 11 in the mag, zero in the barrel? 

 

Think of it this way...what advantage did the shooter gain for not racking one into the chamber? 

I can see moving the shooter for having 11 in a mag, if the start was unloaded, or they fire 12 shots...but on a loaded start, with the chamber empty, the shooter has not gained any advantage. 

The rule doesn’t say anything about an advantage. 

[Nik Habicht]

I'm with the Sarge - and I was at Production Nationals when competitors were moved to Open for loading with an 11 round mag -- before that rule change took effect.  (Yep - around the turn of the millenium, there was no "after the start signal" exemption.)

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Nik Habicht said:

I'm with the Sarge - and I was at Production Nationals when competitors were moved to Open for loading with an 11 round mag -- before that rule change took effect.  (Yep - around the turn of the millenium, there was no "after the start signal" exemption.)

You just taught me why some old timers Barney up in Production instead of loading the start mag with 11. Who’d a thunk it?

[Bkreutz]

I was discussing this with a production shooter a while back at a match. I advised him to use a Barney mag, his answer was that he would "never" forget about the 11 round magazine. 2 stages later and there was an unloaded start, and........you guessed it, we had one more open shooter than we started with.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Bkreutz

[Sarge]

12 hours ago, Bkreutz said:

I was discussing this with a production shooter a while back at a match. I advised him to use a Barney mag, his answer was that he would "never" forget about the 11 round magazine. 2 stages later and there was an unloaded start, and........you guessed it, we had one more open shooter than we started with.

We always had a blue or orange base pad on the 11 rounders to help keep track.

[motosapiens]

i always added the barney round right before my turn on loaded starts. only load 10 in every mag before then. Then I fixed the whole problem by switching to Lord's own SS division.

[AWLAZS]

I saw a shooter get the procedure for having a mag on his belt and he never used it.

[IHAVEGAS]

Topics like these should get the o.p. a procedural on any self respecting gun forum.

 

Particularly if IDPA people might be watching. 

[Nik Habicht]

On 10/18/2017 at 10:51 PM, Sarge said:

You just taught me why some old timers Barney up in Production instead of loading the start mag with 11. Who’d a thunk it?

I do that.  Also because I use ten round mags in Production....  :-)

[bret]

On 10/18/2017 at 4:44 PM, GrumpyOne said:

And what if he racked the slide, but it didn't pick one up? Shooter thinks he has 10 in the mag, one in the barrel, but actually has 11 in the mag, zero in the barrel? 

 

Think of it this way...what advantage did the shooter gain for not racking one into the chamber? 

I can see moving the shooter for having 11 in a mag, if the start was unloaded, or they fire 12 shots...but on a loaded start, with the chamber empty, the shooter has not gained any advantage. 

it doesn't matter if the shooter had an advantage, the rule says no more than 10 rounds in a magazine after the buzzer.

Can you show the rule that says there has to be an advantage to enforce the rules?

If he didn't rack one into the chamber and it has 11 rounds in the magazine, welcome to Open.

The rules are clear, it is not up to the RO's or RM to tailor the rules to how they think they should be, the rules are to be enforced as written.

If you don't like a rule work on changing it.

The Production shooters that are half way decent, grab their barney mag, rack a round in, make sure a round is in the chamber, lower the hammer, drop the mag, make sure there are 10 rounds in a mag, re insert the mag and get in the start position.

Other guys will use only 10 round mag and use a barney mag to load the 1st round into the gun.

Production shooters should know how serious an error like having 11 rounds in any mag after the buzzer is and it is on them to make sure they follow the rules, it is a harsh penalty, but that is what USPSA rules say.

 

[bret]

On 10/20/2017 at 5:38 AM, AWLAZS said:

I saw a shooter get the procedure for having a mag on his belt and he never used it.

what procedural?

If he had 11 rounds in the mag, welcome to Open.

[AWLAZS]

It was an all mags from the barrel stage. He had one on his belt at the start. He didn't use it.

2 hours ago, bret said:

what procedural?

If he had 11 rounds in the mag, welcome to Open.

 

[perttime]

8 minutes ago, AWLAZS said:

It was an all mags from the barrel stage. He had one on his belt at the start. He didn't use it.

 

 

Procedural or not would depend on the exact wording of the written stage description. "All magazines from barrel", "All magazines to be used from the barrel", etc.

[AWLAZS]

2 minutes ago, perttime said:

 

Procedural or not would depend on the exact wording of the written stage description. "All magazines from barrel", "All magazines to be used from the barrel", etc.

I don't remember the stage briefing.  The Rm at a8 was called and he agreed with the call.

[bret]

3 hours ago, AWLAZS said:

It was an all mags from the barrel stage. He had one on his belt at the start. He didn't use it.

 

misunderstood, if mag on the belt then no procedural unless he used it.

[AWLAZS]

.

4 minutes ago, bret said:

misunderstood, if mag on the belt then no procedural unless he used it.

He didn't even know it was on his belt. He was given the procedure

 

[bret]

Just now, AWLAZS said:

.

He didn't even know it was on his belt. He was given the procedure

 

the RO needs to learn the rules.

[perttime]

If stage briefing said "all magazines from the barrel", he failed to follow the briefing.

If it said "all magazines to be used must come from the barrel", and didn't use that particular magazine, then what he did was legal.

[bret]

12 hours ago, perttime said:

If stage briefing said "all magazines from the barrel", he failed to follow the briefing.

If it said "all magazines to be used must come from the barrel", and didn't use that particular magazine, then what he did was legal.

if it said all magazines from the barrel if he did not use the one on his belt, he had to use the magazines from the barrel, how can he get a procedural?
 

if he used the magazine on his belt, he failed to follow the WSB.