RO and liability

[Sandbagger123]

I have always wondered when one runs the timer are they liable for injuries or damages if someone got hurt. Would they be covered by any insurance either through the range or even uspsa?

Sure I know every signs a waiver but really it dies not mean squat

So what covers a RO in case of liability ?

[4me2ply]

What would you think an RO would be liable for? There is only one person with a gun and it isn't the RO.....

[Sarge]

This subject gets brought up from time to time. An RO can certainly create dangerous situations. RO's have started shooters on a COF when people were still down range. That would not be the shooters fault. Sure the dummy should not be down range, but the RO is responsible for the stage

[4me2ply]

hmmmm...I never thought of it from that perspective ^

[Sandbagger123]

This subject gets brought up from time to time. An RO can certainly create dangerous situations. RO's have started shooters on a COF when people were still down range. That would not be the shooters fault. Sure the dummy should not be down range, but the RO is responsible for the stage

OK let's use this scenario. But unfortunately the guy downrange got injured. Would the RO be covered by any insurance etc?

[Sarge]

I am certain my home club would NOT cover it. I think a shooter could sue an RO OR even a club or USPSA itself.

If I were a shooter and the RO CREATED a hazard through his negligence and I shot somebody down range(as an example) I would certainly deflect liability onto him if I were sued. I think he would be on his own.

Now , if he does nothing wrong and I ad and hurt somebody through my own mistake I can't imagine that being anybody else's fault.

[alecmc]

there goes all our volunteer ROs

[bigdaddyZ]

What if the "RO" had never been certified or to a "RO" class?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

This subject gets brought up from time to time. An RO can certainly create dangerous situations. RO's have started shooters on a COF when people were still down range. That would not be the shooters fault. Sure the dummy should not be down range, but the RO is responsible for the stage

OK let's use this scenario. But unfortunately the guy downrange got injured. Would the RO be covered by any insurance etc?

No need. No one saw anything bury the guy in the berm

[Vesteroid]

Anyone, can and will sue anyone, for anything, IF and ONLY IF, the attorney believes they have a reasonable chance of getting paid. Either through a settlement via insurance, or assets from the other party.

There is a well documented case in phoenix years ago where a child was electrocuted by a base ball field light pole. The attorney for the plaintiffs sued everyone who had ever worked on that pole, (the company that originally installed it, and the companies who had provided service since) the makers of all the components (wire, lamps, connectors, ballast, steel, certifying agency, etc)

The thing you have to ask yourself is what type of personal assets are you willing to risk, and who is standing in between you (that more than likely has WAY more money) and the guy first in line.

If you have sizable personal assets, I strongly suggest you have a 1MM or greater umbrella policy over your homeowners. If your in debt for most everything you own, I would not give this a second thought. that club with its insurance policy is standing between you and that plaintiff.

[chuck s]

Yo may be willing to deflect liability onto the RO all you want, but if I am the plaintif attorney and you are the guy that pulled the trigger, you are toast. It would be entertaining to hear you say" but the RO said it was ok to start shooting so I'm not responsible"

[Bkreutz]

Think about who is always at fault in an aircraft accident. It's most always the pilot. If Air Traffic Control vectors him into a mountain, it's still the pilot since ATC was only "advising" him and the pilot made the final decision. Same thing with crane accidents. The person signaling the operator is not at fault, it's the guy at the controls. I've been involved in both of these types of "incidents". Thankfully I've never been involved in the hypothetical shooting situation. I'd have to go with the person who had control being at fault.

[Hi-Power Jack]

the RO is responsible for the stage

Would the RO be covered by any insurance

No need. No one saw anything. Bury the guy in the berm

:roflol: :roflol:

[frgood]

I vaguely recall from somewhere, not sure where (perhaps a liability waiver), a reading that the RO is not ultimately responsible even for the 'show clear' command. It is the responsibility of the shooter to check and confirm the chamber is clear. The liability is in the one with the trigger.

If an RO instructs a shooter to shoot into the peanut gallery, who is responsible?

[peterthefish]

If an incident occurs, expect the shooter, ROs, CROs, MD, Range, and sponsoring organization (USPSA) to be sued. A homeowners / renters policy with liability coverage and an umbrella policy is your best protection. In a perfect world the range's or organization's policy would defend participants / volunteers, but I wouldn't count on it.

The costs of defending even a frivolous claim would cause some financial pain for most people - think $5-$10K. And I wouldn't hope for the plaintiffs attorney to do any due diligence on your assets before naming you in the suit.

A final determination of who's actually responsible would probably take years and a lot of dough, and no waiver in the world will keep you out of the fray.

Edited April 19, 2016 by peterthefish

[Sarge]

Yo may be willing to deflect liability onto the RO all you want, but if I am the plaintif attorney and you are the guy that pulled the trigger, you are toast. It would be entertaining to hear you say" but the RO said it was ok to start shooting so I'm not responsible"

That seems like a stretch. Seems like a reasonable expectation if you get a range command to shoot by a safety officer who is responsible at the time.

Using your logic the shooter should be standing down range to make sure it's really safe to shoot. That would really make DNROI happy

[Chills1994]

There was an instance years ago where a kid got hit in the head at a match.

There was an indoor range building just over the back berm. The kid was sitting in a chair.

The match was going on outside. The bay was equipped with wooden baffles. The bullet went through one baffle, through the wall of the indoor range, traveled through the attic, dropped down through the ceiling, and struck the kid in the head. DRT.

The kid's father was a state trooper.

This happened somewhere in Texas.

I have brought it up before on this forum.

I only know about it because like the Discovery channel did some show about it. The plaintiff's law firm had hired some computer animation specialists to show how the bullet traveled from the bay, through the baffle, through the wall, in the attic, through the ceiling, and finally striking the kid in the head.

IIRC, they traced the bullet back to one particular shooter because it was a cast lead bullet with RedRooster lube in the grooves.

Also, IIRC, the father sued everybody.

As far as hypotheticals go, I am sure most law firms have access to the Lexis Nexus database and get to see which assets you own (car, boat, ATV, plane, second house, farmland, etc.). It would not surprise me if they had access to The Work Number database either, so they get to see how much your employer pays you.

There is no requirement for RO's to be certified at Level 1 matches.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Chills1994

[Nik Habicht]

Yo may be willing to deflect liability onto the RO all you want, but if I am the plaintif attorney and you are the guy that pulled the trigger, you are toast. It would be entertaining to hear you say" but the RO said it was ok to start shooting so I'm not responsible"

That seems like a stretch. Seems like a reasonable expectation if you get a range command to shoot by a safety officer who is responsible at the time.

Using your logic the shooter should be standing down range to make sure it's really safe to shoot. That would really make DNROI happy

I clear stages all the time, when I'm the shooter if I can't see past the walls that were put up -- unless I personally know the ROs. I usually do my final run through when I'm up, and just happen to be the last or almost last person back.......

Then again -- I've had the experience both of giving and receiving "Load and Make Ready" with tapers downrange. Not more than once each -- but once was enough......

It can happen to anyone, on any stage at any time. The prudent competitor or RO makes certain the range is clear.

[Bosshoss]

Wife and I run a club back in the 90's. We had USPSA and steel matches.

I was the match director.

We had a shooter get hurt at a steel match. We used car rims with 4x4 square tubing welded in the center and a 4x4 wood post to hang the steel on. We put tires on the front side of the rim to keep it from falling backwards when hit.

Wife was RO on a stage and two new shooters showed up together and were friends. They shot and one of them flinched badly and hit about 4 feet low. Bullet went thru the tire opening where wheel goes and hit the inside of the rim off to one side and spun 180 degrees around the rim and came back up range and hit his friend in the finger. You could see on the inside of the rim where the bullet skidded around the rim.

The bullet hit his friend right in the knuckle on his finger and was stuck in the knuckle. One of the clubs board members was a pistol shooter and helped run the shoots with us. He took the kid to the hospital.

They had to fuse his knuckle as the bullet destroyed it.

The board at the club wouldn't give me any information on what was happening.

A couple of months later our friend who was on the board pulled me aside and said he wasn't supposed to say anything but wife's and my name was on a lawsuit. His Lawyer was going after anyone they could.

No one would give me any information but but our friend said the NRA club insurance covered it.

I am now a Patron life member. (Thank you NRA)

The board at this club should have shared the info about this since our name was on the lawsuit but they didn't for whatever reason.

[peterthefish]

While it's nice the NRA policy defended you, it's absolute negligence on the part of the attorney handling it to not inform you. If you are named and they are defending you, they owe you the same duty they owe the club.

[M1911]

What would you think an RO would be liable for? There is only one person with a gun and it isn't the RO.....

I don't think that will protect you from a lawsuit if there is an incident at the range.

I know a fellow who was the match director for a 3-gun match some years back. During the match, a person was shot with a round from an AR15. There is some dispute as to where the round came from. The lawsuit asserts that the round was a ricochet that came from an adjacent bay. Some believe that the round came from outside the gun club.

The lawsuit has been going on for years. It has taken a significant toll on the match director.

Edited April 20, 2016 by M1911

[M1911]

What if the "RO" had never been certified or to a "RO" class?

Then the plaintiff's attorney will be asking the MD in deposition why he used "unqualified" ROs.

[Sarge]

Yo may be willing to deflect liability onto the RO all you want, but if I am the plaintif attorney and you are the guy that pulled the trigger, you are toast. It would be entertaining to hear you say" but the RO said it was ok to start shooting so I'm not responsible"

That seems like a stretch. Seems like a reasonable expectation if you get a range command to shoot by a safety officer who is responsible at the time.

Using your logic the shooter should be standing down range to make sure it's really safe to shoot. That would really make DNROI happy

I clear stages all the time, when I'm the shooter if I can't see past the walls that were put up -- unless I personally know the ROs. I usually do my final run through when I'm up, and just happen to be the last or almost last person back.......

Then again -- I've had the experience both of giving and receiving "Load and Make Ready" with tapers downrange. Not more than once each -- but once was enough......

It can happen to anyone, on any stage at any time. The prudent competitor or RO makes certain the range is clear.

If I received load and make ready in a USPSA match I might clear the stage myself too

[9x45]

When I was putting on big matches we used event liability insurance that protects the match staff by name on the policy. They used to be about $400 a year, maybe more now, but that was the first document I would show the land owners and club officers when pitching a match to them. I also used that same policy to protect myself and regular range staff at the IPDA club we ran for 7 years. It's the only thing that stands between you and a lawsuit. Neither the national organization or host club will not protect you, they will protect themselves and the land owners.

Edited April 20, 2016 by 9x45

[Nik Habicht]

Yo may be willing to deflect liability onto the RO all you want, but if I am the plaintif attorney and you are the guy that pulled the trigger, you are toast. It would be entertaining to hear you say" but the RO said it was ok to start shooting so I'm not responsible"

That seems like a stretch. Seems like a reasonable expectation if you get a range command to shoot by a safety officer who is responsible at the time.

Using your logic the shooter should be standing down range to make sure it's really safe to shoot. That would really make DNROI happy

I clear stages all the time, when I'm the shooter if I can't see past the walls that were put up -- unless I personally know the ROs. I usually do my final run through when I'm up, and just happen to be the last or almost last person back.......

Then again -- I've had the experience both of giving and receiving "Load and Make Ready" with tapers downrange. Not more than once each -- but once was enough......

It can happen to anyone, on any stage at any time. The prudent competitor or RO makes certain the range is clear.

If I received load and make ready in a USPSA match I might clear the stage myself too

I guess you missed the point -- those scenarios go back to ~2002-4 -- when LAMR was the correct range command. I'm thinking you should clear them every time.....