Sandbagger123 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 so watching vid i noticed this. start position is anywhere in the shooting area. watch at 1:24 and notice her hand position. by default should it not be naturally at sides? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnnftkLB9Ng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino_aki Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 You would think so but the R.O. is looking right at her hand so either it wasn't caught until too many shooters had already gone through to designate it a forbidden action or it was addressed in the overall match briefing. Her hand is pretty close to her holster in many of her other starts also so.... I'd have to see what other competitors were doing or allowed to do to make a more reasoned opinion. I know when I design stages that my WSB's aren't quite so abbreviated but that may just be me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Definitely not hands relaxed. Almost all women do this. You should see the looks you'll get if you make them correct it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 And here we go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Start position not specified but one would think 8.2.2 would apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) If you have a USPSA shooter dabble in IPSC they are going to hear 8.2.2 ALL DAY. Trust me on that one. I have come to realize working matches across the eastern seaboard that RO's in USPSA have a more relaxed way of looking at start positions. If an RO were to make you stand as shown in App. E3 then they are going to be considered a range nazi. But in all seriousness, according to the rulebook she shouldn't have been started in that position and if she was then that is grounds for a mandatory reshoot. Ninja edit: More importantly watch what happens starting at 2:40. Are those pouches in front of the hip bone? Edited January 30, 2016 by LilBunniFuFu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I am confused. What does IPSC have to do with anything? Wasn't this a USPSA match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 8.2.2 is the same rule with the same penalty across both sports. The only difference is that in USPSA there is a much high chance of being started in the incorrect position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I am confused. What does IPSC have to do with anything? Wasn't this a USPSA match?I think he was just pointing out IPSC is not as blind to this type of infraction as we are in USPSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Thanks! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harleytech Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I shot this match and there were a few stages that the WSB said start anywhere/anyhow. That's the story with the hand positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 The thing is in that section of the vid her hand is basically right over the grip. At least the other she has to make an arm movement instead of just closing her hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I shot this match and there were a few stages that the WSB said start anywhere/anyhow. That's the story with the hand positions. I am assuming then the WSB before the stage in the vid was not the actual WSB then since that is not what it said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 There's a giant thread about this somewhere. The WSB said standing anywhere in the shooting area...does that mean you can do anything with your hands or not? The ROs at this match seemed to think so, so find their names and blame them instead of the shooter, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 so watching vid i noticed this. start position is anywhere in the shooting area. watch at 1:24 and notice her hand position. by default should it not be naturally at sides? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnnftkLB9Ng In that stage (5), the start position was anywhere anyhow, perfectly legal start position. Most stages in the match were anywhere anyhow. Per the MD. Stage 3 was the classifier, that had a specified start position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 There's a giant thread about this somewhere. The WSB said standing anywhere in the shooting area...does that mean you can do anything with your hands or not? The ROs at this match seemed to think so, so find their names and blame them instead of the shooter, IMO. No one needs to be blamed, it was a legal start position per the WSB and the MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 If you have a USPSA shooter dabble in IPSC they are going to hear 8.2.2 ALL DAY. Trust me on that one. I have come to realize working matches across the eastern seaboard that RO's in USPSA have a more relaxed way of looking at start positions. If an RO were to make you stand as shown in App. E3 then they are going to be considered a range nazi. But in all seriousness, according to the rulebook she shouldn't have been started in that position and if she was then that is grounds for a mandatory reshoot. Ninja edit: More importantly watch what happens starting at 2:40. Are those pouches in front of the hip bone? At 2:40 her belt came loose and was only held on by the velcro on the front of the belt. Anyhow was the start position. For people that didn't shoot the match you guys sure complain a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DagoRed Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I'm gonna have to pay better attention. I guess I just assumed that if it didn't specify otherwise it was hands relaxed at sides. this kind of start could give me an extra second or two. Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I'm gonna have to pay better attention. I guess I just assumed that if it didn't specify otherwise it was hands relaxed at sides. this kind of start could give me an extra second or two. Red Typically it's hands relaxed at sides. But the WSB said anywhere, anyhow on most if the stages in this match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 This debate has occurred before. The WSB said standing in the shooting area. That does NOT allow anything other than a choice of where to stand. It does not negate the rule: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3. The WSB did not say anything about posture, direction facing, or arms and hands so the default still applies. I recall Troy saying something about this recently... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 This debate has occurred before. The WSB said standing in the shooting area. That does NOT allow anything other than a choice of where to stand. It does not negate the rule: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. Arms hanging naturally by sides is illustrated in Appendix E3. The WSB did not say anything about posture, direction facing, or arms and hands so the default still applies. I recall Troy saying something about this recently... Did you shoot the match? Did you work the match? Were you there? I was and per the WSB it was a legal hand position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) This debate has occurred before. The WSB said standing in the shooting area. That does NOT allow anything other than a choice of where to stand. It does not negate the rule: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. Arms hanging naturally by sides is illustrated in Appendix E3. The WSB did not say anything about posture, direction facing, or arms and hands so the default still applies. I recall Troy saying something about this recently... Did you shoot the match? Did you work the match? Were you there? I was and per the WSB it was a legal hand position. Nope,Nope,Nope and wrong. (Not wrong you were there, just the WSB did not say anything about had position, so the default still applies) Edited January 31, 2016 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) This debate has occurred before. The WSB said standing in the shooting area. That does NOT allow anything other than a choice of where to stand. It does not negate the rule: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. Arms hanging naturally by sides is illustrated in Appendix E3. The WSB did not say anything about posture, direction facing, or arms and hands so the default still applies. I recall Troy saying something about this recently... Did you shoot the match?Did you work the match? Were you there? I was and per the WSB it was a legal hand position. Nope,Nope,Nope and wrong.I worked it and shot it, it was a legal hand position per the WSB and MD, take it up with him if you don't like it or call DNROI.Were you there when the Written Stage Brief was read? I know what it said because I shot it and it was the stage next to mine. Edited January 31, 2016 by bret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Start position inside the shooting area (there was 4) anywhere, anyhow. When shooters asked what that meant and if they could hover over their gun, the answer was yes. They were not allowed to touch the gun or a magazine. Other than that they could do what they wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 This debate has occurred before. The WSB said standing in the shooting area. That does NOT allow anything other than a choice of where to stand. It does not negate the rule: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. Arms hanging naturally by sides is illustrated in Appendix E3. The WSB did not say anything about posture, direction facing, or arms and hands so the default still applies. I recall Troy saying something about this recently... Did you shoot the match?Did you work the match? Were you there? I was and per the WSB it was a legal hand position. Nope,Nope,Nope and wrong.I worked it and shot it, it was a legal hand position per the WSB and MD, take it up with him if you don't like it or call DNROI.Were you there when the Written Stage Brief was read? I know what it said because I shot it and it was the stage next to mine. WSB is in the video... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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