bret Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 This debate has occurred before. The WSB said standing in the shooting area. That does NOT allow anything other than a choice of where to stand. It does not negate the rule: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. Arms hanging naturally by sides is illustrated in Appendix E3. The WSB did not say anything about posture, direction facing, or arms and hands so the default still applies. I recall Troy saying something about this recently... Did you shoot the match?Did you work the match? Were you there? I was and per the WSB it was a legal hand position. Nope,Nope,Nope and wrong.I worked it and shot it, it was a legal hand position per the WSB and MD, take it up with him if you don't like it or call DNROI.Were you there when the Written Stage Brief was read? I know what it said because I shot it and it was the stage next to mine. WSB is in the video... That was Not the written stage brief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 This debate has occurred before. The WSB said standing in the shooting area. That does NOT allow anything other than a choice of where to stand. It does not negate the rule: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. Arms hanging naturally by sides is illustrated in Appendix E3. The WSB did not say anything about posture, direction facing, or arms and hands so the default still applies. I recall Troy saying something about this recently... Did you shoot the match?Did you work the match? Were you there? I was and per the WSB it was a legal hand position. Nope,Nope,Nope and wrong.I worked it and shot it, it was a legal hand position per the WSB and MD, take it up with him if you don't like it or call DNROI.Were you there when the Written Stage Brief was read? I know what it said because I shot it and it was the stage next to mine. WSB is in the video... That was Not the written stage brief. The OP asked if the start was legal based on the video. The video had a WSB. Base on that, not legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 This debate has occurred before. The WSB said standing in the shooting area. That does NOT allow anything other than a choice of where to stand. It does not negate the rule: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. Arms hanging naturally by sides is illustrated in Appendix E3. The WSB did not say anything about posture, direction facing, or arms and hands so the default still applies. I recall Troy saying something about this recently... Did you shoot the match?Did you work the match? Were you there? I was and per the WSB it was a legal hand position. Nope,Nope,Nope and wrong.I worked it and shot it, it was a legal hand position per the WSB and MD, take it up with him if you don't like it or call DNROI.Were you there when the Written Stage Brief was read? I know what it said because I shot it and it was the stage next to mine. WSB is in the video...That was Not the written stage brief. The OP asked if the start was legal based on the video. The video had a WSB. Base on that, not legal. The video did not have the written stage brief. That was from the match book. Stage description's are not what the shooter follows, the WSB is what the shooter is required to follow. Candice used the .pdf from the matchbook as a graphic for her video. The WSB was not exactly the same as the matchbook. The competitors were not given copies of the WSB, nor were they posted online. We read them to each squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Again the start position on that stage was inside the shooting area, anywhere anyhow. The shooters were given very much leeway in how they started. If they wanted to face up range, down range, sideways, laying down, standing on their head,standing on one foot, hands above their head, hands on their pockets, anywhere anyhow was what they were told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterDrew Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 We did specifically address the stage briefing at one point in the match (albeit most of the way through) and the ROs explained that anyway, anyhow specifically did mean any location and any hand / body position so long as you weren't touching your gun. I'm not gamey enough to have done anything tricky with that info but it was made very clear what it meant when we asked. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 i started this so i may need to end it. i watched the vid and according to what she had on it it did not look correct. This is a public forum and asking questions with the info available publicly is not out of the question. Some of you might think there was some malice towards her but there is not. i watch uspsa vids on youtube all the time and she just happen to be the one that did something odd according to the WSB SHE posted. According to what she posted on there with the WSB,the rules support the hands at sides. We had no knowledge that it was not the same as the WSB used in the match. if one does not want their vids to be scrutinized, don't post them in a public realm. if you do, make sure the info you post is correct or it can go sideways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 i started this so i may need to end it. i watched the vid and according to what she had on it it did not look correct. This is a public forum and asking questions with the info available publicly is not out of the question. Some of you might think there was some malice towards her but there is not. i watch uspsa vids on youtube all the time and she just happen to be the one that did something odd according to the WSB SHE posted. According to what she posted on there with the WSB,the rules support the hands at sides. We had no knowledge that it was not the same as the WSB used in the match. if one does not want their vids to be scrutinized, don't post them in a public realm. if you do, make sure the info you post is correct or it can go sideways WSB is often different than the course description given in the matchbook. Rule Nazi's in Golf will call the PGA in regards to Golf tournaments in progress when they think they got someone, call Troy MCMANUS DNROI if you think someone cheated. Candice is a good shooter, 1st woman GM, she is a USPSA Range Officer and she knows the rules very well, on the stage where her hand position was questioned it had 2 very experienced knowledgeable CRO's, they would not have started her in any position that violated the rules. Most start positions in the Florida State Championship said anywhere anyhow in the WSB, the MD didn't want any bunch of range Nazi's telling the shooters how their start position had to be, makes it easier on the shooter and the R.O. plus it makes for some interesting start positions. How much time did she save by having her hand that close to the gun? Hard to say but I would say .1 second or .2 at the most, or maybe none at all since that's not how she would start most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 i started this so i may need to end it. i watched the vid and according to what she had on it it did not look correct. This is a public forum and asking questions with the info available publicly is not out of the question. Some of you might think there was some malice towards her but there is not. i watch uspsa vids on youtube all the time and she just happen to be the one that did something odd according to the WSB SHE posted. According to what she posted on there with the WSB,the rules support the hands at sides. We had no knowledge that it was not the same as the WSB used in the match. if one does not want their vids to be scrutinized, don't post them in a public realm. if you do, make sure the info you post is correct or it can go sideways Amen brother, that is all that is going on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPatton Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) If it was "anywhere, anyhow" then Bill Jordan's #1 rule in a gunfight should apply i.e., "The fastest draw in a gunfight is to already have your gun in your hand when the hostilities start." (Bill Jordan "No Second Place Winner") Edited January 31, 2016 by RPatton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 There's a giant thread about this somewhere. The WSB said standing anywhere in the shooting area...does that mean you can do anything with your hands or not? The ROs at this match seemed to think so, so find their names and blame them instead of the shooter, IMO. No one needs to be blamed, it was a legal start position per the WSB and the MD. The MD doesn't define legal start positions -- the RM manages that part of the job, in conjunction with the CROs running the stages. The RM also has the final say on how the WSB reads. I'm fine with the interpretation -- that once you specify the start position as "anywhere in the shooting area" that the competitor can start standing, sitting, kneeling, crouching, with hands anywhere that's other wise compliant with the rulebook -- though I'll usually specify that, if it's what we're going with. My start position might have read: Standing, anywhere in shooting area, hands in position of shooter's choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 This debate has occurred before. The WSB said standing in the shooting area. That does NOT allow anything other than a choice of where to stand. It does not negate the rule: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3. The WSB did not say anything about posture, direction facing, or arms and hands so the default still applies. I recall Troy saying something about this recently... The thing is that when they specified "Standing in the shooting area" they did in fact specify something "otherwise specified......" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 This debate has occurred before. The WSB said standing in the shooting area. That does NOT allow anything other than a choice of where to stand. It does not negate the rule: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. Arms hanging naturally by sides is illustrated in Appendix E3. The WSB did not say anything about posture, direction facing, or arms and hands so the default still applies. I recall Troy saying something about this recently... Did you shoot the match?Did you work the match? Were you there? I was and per the WSB it was a legal hand position. Nope,Nope,Nope and wrong.I worked it and shot it, it was a legal hand position per the WSB and MD, take it up with him if you don't like it or call DNROI.Were you there when the Written Stage Brief was read? I know what it said because I shot it and it was the stage next to mine. WSB is in the video... No, sorry -- WSB was not in the video. Stage diagram and summary were in the video. The actual WSB that is read verbatim to the competitors on each squad as they arrive at a stage is usually a one to two paragraph word document. When I RM a match, I place that in a plastic sleeve and place the diagram on the other side for the match staff to read..... Since the WSB should be read to each squad VERBATIM it's typically typed out..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) In case I missed it, what's the ruling on the belt? (both in what got called and technically what the rules are. Not just pertaining here to Candice but for general knowlege) Safety issue, reshoot? (he didn't stop her) Mags are now in an illegal position, penalties? Bumps to open? lol No advantage, just the opposite, so no harm no foul? Edited January 31, 2016 by cas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 This debate has occurred before. The WSB said standing in the shooting area. That does NOT allow anything other than a choice of where to stand. It does not negate the rule: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3. The WSB did not say anything about posture, direction facing, or arms and hands so the default still applies. I recall Troy saying something about this recently... The thing is that when they specified "Standing in the shooting area" they did in fact specify something "otherwise specified......" Just to make sure I understand the application of 8.2.2: The default start position applies only if the WSB says absolutely nothing about the starting position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bthoefer Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 i started this so i may need to end it. i watched the vid and according to what she had on it it did not look correct. This is a public forum and asking questions with the info available publicly is not out of the question. Some of you might think there was some malice towards her but there is not. i watch uspsa vids on youtube all the time and she just happen to be the one that did something odd according to the WSB SHE posted. According to what she posted on there with the WSB,the rules support the hands at sides. We had no knowledge that it was not the same as the WSB used in the match. if one does not want their vids to be scrutinized, don't post them in a public realm. if you do, make sure the info you post is correct or it can go sideways WSB is often different than the course description given in the matchbook.Rule Nazi's in Golf will call the PGA in regards to Golf tournaments in progress when they think they got someone, call Troy MCMANUS DNROI if you think someone cheated. Candice is a good shooter, 1st woman GM, she is a USPSA Range Officer and she knows the rules very well, on the stage where her hand position was questioned it had 2 very experienced knowledgeable CRO's, they would not have started her in any position that violated the rules. Most start positions in the Florida State Championship said anywhere anyhow in the WSB, the MD didn't want any bunch of range Nazi's telling the shooters how their start position had to be, makes it easier on the shooter and the R.O. plus it makes for some interesting start positions. How much time did she save by having her hand that close to the gun? Hard to say but I would say .1 second or .2 at the most, or maybe none at all since that's not how she would start most of the time. She's not an RO anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Who was the RM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 This debate has occurred before. The WSB said standing in the shooting area. That does NOT allow anything other than a choice of where to stand. It does not negate the rule: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3. The WSB did not say anything about posture, direction facing, or arms and hands so the default still applies. I recall Troy saying something about this recently... The thing is that when they specified "Standing in the shooting area" they did in fact specify something "otherwise specified......" That is mandating where they can stand.....not how they can stand. There is a difference and words matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 In case I missed it, what's the ruling on the belt? (both in what got called and technically what the rules are. Not just pertaining here to Candice but for general knowlege) Safety issue, reshoot? (he didn't stop her) Mags are now in an illegal position, penalties? Bumps to open? lol No advantage, just the opposite, so no harm no foul? She was not stopped, no penalties were incurred, mags were most definitely in front of the hip bone when she grabbed them. The same thing happened to a GM a few months back at the same range. They had finished the match in open. If the RO doesn't call it then it never happened correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Count me as one who saw clearly what the OP was asking. It's a fair question, given the information available to the OP. He didn't criticize the shooter, just asked a question based on what he saw in the video. I'd ask the same question and would expect to be respected for asking it. That's what BE is for, asking questions and learning. BTW, this seems to be one of those questions that comes up periodically, probably because folks have different ways of interpreting it. In my neck of the woods, "the competitor assumes the start position" means the position specified by the match, and "unless otherwise specified the competitor stands erect, etc." means just what it says. That's not very complicated. If the RM wants to change that, it can be done but should be done for everyone, throughout the entire match, in order to keep it fair and equitable. However, there seems to be another interpretation floating around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Count me as one who saw clearly what the OP was asking. It's a fair question, given the information available to the OP. He didn't criticize the shooter, just asked a question based on what he saw in the video. I'd ask the same question and would expect to be respected for asking it. That's what BE is for, asking questions and learning. BTW, this seems to be one of those questions that comes up periodically, probably because folks have different ways of interpreting it. In my neck of the woods, "the competitor assumes the start position" means the position specified by the match, and "unless otherwise specified the competitor stands erect, etc." means just what it says. That's not very complicated. If the RM wants to change that, it can be done but should be done for everyone, throughout the entire match, in order to keep it fair and equitable. However, there seems to be another interpretation floating around... All competitors in the match had the same opportunity to start anywhere, anyhow and ask the CRO's and RO's or RM any questions about the start position or any other questions they wanted to. Some competitors may have assumed relaxed standing erect, others asked questions and found out what anywhere, anyhow meant. All competitors shot the same match, only ones that may have been disadvantaged was the staff that shot on Friday in a downpour of 6 plus inches of rain. We didn't complain, we shot it and dealt with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) Easy. We're just trying to get some information here. Edited February 1, 2016 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Easy. We're just trying to get some information here. It has been explained many times. This is exactly why the MD specified anywhere anyhow, to try and keep the rule nazis at bay. People that didn't shoot the match seem to be more concerned about it than the people that were there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Easy. We're just trying to get some information here. It has been explained many times. This is exactly why the MD specified anywhere anyhow, to try and keep the rule nazis at bay. People that didn't shoot the match seem to be more concerned about it than the people that were there. We get it, all but you have moved on to a more global look at it, not a match specific deal. Relax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 There is that "rules nazi" crap again. The start positions were made so non specific so rules nazis wouldn't make shooters stand or start per the rules in the rule book? I guess the RM has the latitude to do this but I can't help but think it was only done to make things easier for him? I think as a CRO I would have much preferred to have the WSB indicate a start position from the rule book than to answer over and over that you can do anything you want. It does seem though that we had this discussion a few times before and it was determined to be the opposite of what I'm seeing now. I and many others have taken standing anywhere in shooting area to mean you only had to be standing on your feet. You could be in a sprinters stance etc. but I'm certain DNROI said that means the default position applies since nothing else is specified. I'm confused again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 There is that "rules nazi" crap again. The start positions were made so non specific so rules nazis wouldn't make shooters stand or start per the rules in the rule book? I guess the RM has the latitude to do this but I can't help but think it was only done to make things easier for him? I think as a CRO I would have much preferred to have the WSB indicate a start position from the rule book than to answer over and over that you can do anything you want. It does seem though that we had this discussion a few times before and it was determined to be the opposite of what I'm seeing now. I and many others have taken standing anywhere in shooting area to mean you only had to be standing on your feet. You could be in a sprinters stance etc. but I'm certain DNROI said that means the default position applies since nothing else is specified. I'm confused again Standing in shooting area, anywhere,anyhow. How much simpler and flexible can it be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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