Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[d_striker]

Too many issues putting PCC in handgun matches.

Actually no issues at all. Only opinion generated.

I disagree, but hopefully the President and BOD will listen to the members instead of a few of the vocal minority on it.

Not likely. Foley seems like the biggest proponent of PCC.

[bret]

Too many issues putting PCC in handgun matches.

Actually no issues at all. Only opinion generated.

I disagree, but hopefully the President and BOD will listen to the members instead of a few of the vocal minority on it.

Not likely. Foley seems like the biggest proponent of PCC.

I sent him a message with my concerns telling him I am opposed to it in Handgun matches, we will see what happens.

[DocMedic]

Bret, its just speculation at this point as I'm not sure how Troy will write the rules but the general consensus seem to be since PCC shooters are only competing against other PCC shooters, that those starting position will not be changed for Handgun users, but for PCC user, Uprange starts will be defaulted to downrange low ready, Strong-hand will be normal shooting, and weak-hand would be weak hand & weak shoulder. But right now that is just speculation until we see a draft proposal of rules.

[MarkCO]

Range Positions: weak hand vs strong hand.

-These positions can still be done, and is a common firearm manipulation practice in the real world. PCC would be fired with the correct hand and shouldered while the other hand not touching the PCC.

If that is a rule, then our club will not be offering it as a Division. A smaller statured person, or weaker person, not only unsafe, but likely not possible.

ok, so you're saying that PCC's are fundamentally different from handguns, and they can't do all the same things, and stages and WSB's would have to be changed or dumbed down to accomodate them? I agree with you there. That's kind of why I am skeptical of them being in handgun matches.

Maybe it's just how I've been trained, but I am also very uncomfortable with the idea of being swept by an uncased gun in someone else's hands, even if it has a chamber flag. Maybe I'll get over that.

Generally yes, i agree with you. But people were uncomfortable with almost all of the new, different and or innovative things (gunpowder, rifling, cartridges, red dots, comps, etc.). I enjoy 3Gun, but I could not get good enough to weakhand load, so I worked on a system for Twins and Quad loading. That is basically the standard and, according to many, one of the main reasons why 3Gun has exploded over the last 5 years. Trying new things is not bad. Sometimes they can go off into the weeds, sure. Provided safety is foremost, I am good with trying new things. There are several 3Gun matches I shot once and will never again because some of their rules violate the 4 fundamental gun laws and I am not good with stripping away a layer of safety. I don't think that Mike and Troy are either.

[bret]

Bret, its just speculation at this point as I'm not sure how Troy will write the rules but the general consensus seem to be since PCC shooters are only competing against other PCC shooters, that those starting position will not be changed for Handgun users, but for PCC user, Uprange starts will be defaulted to downrange low ready, Strong-hand will be normal shooting, and weak-hand would be weak hand & weak shoulder. But right now that is just speculation until we see a draft proposal of rules.

It is no longer a division within a handgun match then, It has its own rules then, in handgun, everyone starts the same.

PCC does not belong in Handgun matches, it belongs in its own match, own rule book or in multigun.

[BritinUSA]

There is already rule book for Rifle. There is nothing to stop someone from running a rifle-only match under EXISTING USPSA rules.

[bret]

There is already rule book for Rifle. There is nothing to stop someone from running a rifle-only match under EXISTING USPSA rules.

Great, leave it there, no need to drag it into pistol matches.

[Jake Di Vita]

There is already rule book for Rifle. There is nothing to stop someone from running a rifle-only match under EXISTING USPSA rules.

Great, leave it there, no need to drag it into pistol matches.

Man you are ridiculous...I thought I was stubborn.

Trust me, everyone knows where you stand on this. Really.

[bret]

There is already rule book for Rifle. There is nothing to stop someone from running a rifle-only match under EXISTING USPSA rules.

Great, leave it there, no need to drag it into pistol matches.

Man you are ridiculous...I thought I was stubborn.

Trust me, everyone knows where you stand on this. Really.

Are people limited to one comment only?

Call the moderator to delete posts over 1 per person if that's the case.

[motosapiens]

There is already rule book for Rifle. There is nothing to stop someone from running a rifle-only match under EXISTING USPSA rules.

Great, leave it there, no need to drag it into pistol matches.

Man you are ridiculous...I thought I was stubborn.

Trust me, everyone knows where you stand on this. Really.

Are people limited to one comment only?

Call the moderator to delete posts over 1 per person if that's the case.

One interesting and relevant comment is the limit. You and I should probably keep posting.

Edited February 1, 2016 by motosapiens

[alma]

Start positions rarely add anything significant to the stage. At best they are a gimmick trying to distract you for that first second or two until you actually get to the shooting. You could arbitrarily change most start positions to a single standard one for PPC and it would change almost nothing about a stage or a match. Start positions alone definitely should not be the reason to throw in the towel on PCC. Prop manipulation and one handed shooting would be much more difficult and requires some thought and adaptation but would represents a small minority of stages shot at a typical match.

[Gary Stevens]

Since we have been running PCC/RCC matches for years it really is not a problem. We simply write in start position for both gun platforms. Weak hand turns into weak shoulder supported most often. We bought MTM plastic rifle racks for each range to store long guns in. SBR shooters put a small wooden dowel in the barrel to support the rifle. We just make it work.

All of the issues will be taken care of by DNROI when the rules are released.

No club is forced to run PCC. Free market principles will apply.

[d_striker]

Bret, its just speculation at this point as I'm not sure how Troy will write the rules but the general consensus seem to be since PCC shooters are only competing against other PCC shooters, that those starting position will not be changed for Handgun users, but for PCC user, Uprange starts will be defaulted to downrange low ready, Strong-hand will be normal shooting, and weak-hand would be weak hand & weak shoulder. But right now that is just speculation until we see a draft proposal of rules.

What about stages where you have to pull and hold on to a rope to keep a port open? I see no other option than to purely shoot it strong or weak hand only without the use of a support hand.

In this case, SBR's would clearly have an advantage over 16" rifles. There would be the perception of needing an SBR to be competitive in the division.

[BillD]

Ah come on Uncle Gary, can't we all just wring our hands and bitch?

Edited February 1, 2016 by BillD

[ctay]

I understand both sides - and having been an advocate for CO I understand the frustration when someone opposes a change when you can't understand their reasoning. PPC could be really fun but it is critical that we think this though because this is a fundamental change to the sport - Long guns in what has always been hand gun matches.

Here are the things I would need addressed before we could run PPC at our club.

1) Biggest is start position. You simply cannot safely (and reasonably) start facing up range while holding a long gun. There may be safe ways to do it but not within the "reasonably accommodate all types of shooters" dynamic. Simply too many people that don't have the control to be trusted facing up range with a long gun. Start positions will have to change which, though seeming simple, adds a layer of complexity to the match that doesn't exist now. Not insurmountable but it does exist.

2) One handed shooting. There have been numerous one hand shooting stages at national and area matches that simply cannot be done (safely) with a long gun. For example, in the 2014 High Desert Classic we had a stage where you held onto a grip and hung out to each side to engage targets one handed. Just can't be done consistently and safely with a long gun. More examples are port hold open stages - which are fairly common. Some could be done by holding open the port with the barrel, some can't. How can you write one universal rule to manage all the potential situations?

There is more but I somehow accidentally posted this when I was hitting the tab button... Sigh...

Edited February 1, 2016 by ctay

[ctay]

3) Table starts. At the 2015 High Desert Classic we had two table starts and I believe that only one of them would have accommodated a long gun. The table must be long enough and there needs to be sufficient room for the long gun to sit before coming into contact with some other prop.

There are likely other *real* issues that need to be dealt with to make this happen. So far, it seems that the most likely solution to these simple issues is to just change the stage - ie all PPC's always face up range, don't use the table - not sure how to handle one handed hanging stages. While that may seem to work - are we still really shooting the same match if you have to change all the start positions and key elements of the stage to do it?

This needs some real thought that isn't clouded by how much fun this would be. Fun is great but there are other considerations - safety and consistency among them.

Moreover, as CO has demonstrated, once a division becomes "provisional" it is very difficult get rid of. In fact, offering something then taking it away is a great way to DAMAGE the goodwill of the org.

Just my .02.

Chris

Edited February 1, 2016 by ctay

[Gary Stevens]

Ah come on Uncle Gary, can't we all just wring our hands and bitch?

That is one possibility. I would rather use the Gunny Highway method. Improvise, adapt, and overcome:))

[CHA-LEE]

As a USPSA Pistol Match Director I don't want to take on the addition "headache" of trying to support PPC in a normal pistol match. There are plenty of local 3Gun matches, both sanctioned and outlaw, that shooters can play with a PPC at.

[DocMedic]

PCC =/= 3Gun

[BritinUSA]

PCC =/= 3Gun

PCC=Rifle

PCC=/=Handgun

[DocMedic]

PCC=USPSA

[Sarge]

My local USPSA club runs a steel match 3 or 4 times a year that has both the regular pistol divisions and a PCC division. There is no issue in the two shooting the same stages at the same time. Not in scoring, not in safety, not in match admin, not in target location. Nothing. Changing out steel for paper targets will not change this. I shoot this match with both pistol and pcc and have for years. I am not talking hypotheticals but real experience.

As in a stand and shoot steel match? Or a run and gun Uspsa match with only steel targets. This would be apples and oranges.

[CHA-LEE]

I am not going to waste half a day reading all 27 pages of this thread. But my stance on PPC in historically only Pistol matches is this. We already have too many different Divisions, Classes, and Categories in USPSA Pistol Matches as it is now. There is no need to add yet another division for a RIFLE to be used at a PISTOL match. Just because a few existing USPSA shooters would like to rampage through a pistol stage with their PPC does not justify a whole new division and baggage it brings with it.

As a match director, I can see my walls, ports, barrels and barricades getting shot to shit by PPC's because shooters can't seem to understand that there is a 3 - 4 inch offset between their sights and the barrel. Hell, we have that problem now with pistols and it would be 10 times worse with PPC. The second thing I don't want to deal with is having an alternate PPC start position for each stage and the subsequent 987234237923489 questions from shooters asking which starting position applies to them or RO's getting it all mixed up between divisions. The third thing I don't want is the additional stage time (Day light) lost in the Make Ready and Unload / Show clear processes. The last thing I don't want to deal with is the additional range equipment required to make them rifle friendly such as safe areas, gun racks, and crap like that.

Most of the local 3 Gun berm style matches I have seen could TOTALLY be shot with a PPC and even in most cases be an effective replacement for a normal .223 rifle given the relatively short distances of targets used. So I don't get the whole PPC isn't viable in 3 Gun argument. Even at the 3 Gun matches that do have longer distance targets, all of the "Pistol" targets could be shot with a PPC. Those matches are totally designed to handle dealing with long guns so why on earth would you NOT want to deploy PPC there? Verses trying to reinvent the wheel at a USPSA Pistol match?

[d_striker]

PCC=USPSA

I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a place for PCC in USPSA. The pushback is putting PCC into USPSA HANDGUN matches. There are already USPSA sanctioned multi-gun matches where PCC would be a better fit.

[bret]

I am not going to waste half a day reading all 27 pages of this thread. But my stance on PPC in historically only Pistol matches is this. We already have too many different Divisions, Classes, and Categories in USPSA Pistol Matches as it is now. There is no need to add yet another division for a RIFLE to be used at a PISTOL match. Just because a few existing USPSA shooters would like to rampage through a pistol stage with their PPC does not justify a whole new division and baggage it brings with it.

As a match director, I can see my walls, ports, barrels and barricades getting shot to shit by PPC's because shooters can't seem to understand that there is a 3 - 4 inch offset between their sights and the barrel. Hell, we have that problem now with pistols and it would be 10 times worse with PPC. The second thing I don't want to deal with is having an alternate PPC start position for each stage and the subsequent 987234237923489 questions from shooters asking which starting position applies to them or RO's getting it all mixed up between divisions. The third thing I don't want is the additional stage time (Day light) lost in the Make Ready and Unload / Show clear processes. The last thing I don't want to deal with is the additional range equipment required to make them rifle friendly such as safe areas, gun racks, and crap like that.

Most of the local 3 Gun berm style matches I have seen could TOTALLY be shot with a PPC and even in most cases be an effective replacement for a normal .223 rifle given the relatively short distances of targets used. So I don't get the whole PPC isn't viable in 3 Gun argument. Even at the 3 Gun matches that do have longer distance targets, all of the "Pistol" targets could be shot with a PPC. Those matches are totally designed to handle dealing with long guns so why on earth would you NOT want to deploy PPC there? Verses trying to reinvent the wheel at a USPSA Pistol match?

I agree 100%