Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[Ultimo-Hombre]

I am gonna laugh my a$$ off if the PCC rules come out and say you can't use an SBR.

I'm betting that would be a deal breaker for many.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Normally comments like that are met with a chorus of "It's either a USPSA match or it isn't. You either follow the USPSA rulebook or you don't." I guess enough people like the idea of PCC so it's OK.

Little different. Instead of a side match afterwards, we're running it with the normal USPSA match. All of the rules apply for the official sanctioned match, we just let people run PCCs as well. There is really no "outlaw" about it.

No you are making the handgun shooters follow the rule book, and also letting guys shoot rifles NOT under a rulebook. Pistol shooter can't expose his trigger until under the supervision of an RO and told to make ready. Rifles aren't doing that.

There seems to be a lot of hypocracy going on in the name of this..

Will be interesting to see what course of action has been predetermined by our leadership. I am guessing that USPSA matches will be governed by the pistol rules we all know, and a rifle rule book lots of us have never seen before both at the same time.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre

[Alaskapopo]

Seems like some people on here just want to kill having fun. (ie shooting PCC)

I am all for the match director not allowing a division if he has good reasons. But those of us that want this division should be allowed to do so.
Pat

Edited January 29, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[PKT1106]

Normally comments like that are met with a chorus of "It's either a USPSA match or it isn't. You either follow the USPSA rulebook or you don't." I guess enough people like the idea of PCC so it's OK.

Little different. Instead of a side match afterwards, we're running it with the normal USPSA match. All of the rules apply for the official sanctioned match, we just let people run PCCs as well. There is really no "outlaw" about it.

No you are making the handgun shooters follow the rule book, and also letting guys shoot rifles NOT under a rulebook. Pistol shooter can't expose his trigger until under the supervision of an RO and told to make ready. Rifles aren't doing that.

There seems to be a lot of hypocracy going on in the name of this..

Will be interesting to see what course of action has been predetermined by our leadership. I am guessing that USPSA matches will be governed by the pistol rules we all know, and a rifle rule book lots of us have never seen before both at the same time.

The PCC shooters are not part of the USPSA match. Its no different than a side match afterward. I don't see where you're getting hypocrisy from.

[Cherryriver]

"Seems like some people on here just want to kill having fun. (ie shooting PCC)"

I run two large USPSA programs, and put in an easy 300+ hours a years doing so, not even counting working majors, other disciplines, events, and club Board duties that may be related.

I am indeed skeptical of PCC Division, and have yet to be convinced it's a good idea, yes.

Accuse me of anything you like, but wanting to kill having fun probably won't be a sustainable charge.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Normally comments like that are met with a chorus of "It's either a USPSA match or it isn't. You either follow the USPSA rulebook or you don't." I guess enough people like the idea of PCC so it's OK.

Little different. Instead of a side match afterwards, we're running it with the normal USPSA match. All of the rules apply for the official sanctioned match, we just let people run PCCs as well. There is really no "outlaw" about it.

No you are making the handgun shooters follow the rule book, and also letting guys shoot rifles NOT under a rulebook. Pistol shooter can't expose his trigger until under the supervision of an RO and told to make ready. Rifles aren't doing that.

There seems to be a lot of hypocracy going on in the name of this..

Will be interesting to see what course of action has been predetermined by our leadership. I am guessing that USPSA matches will be governed by the pistol rules we all know, and a rifle rule book lots of us have never seen before both at the same time.

The PCC shooters are not part of the USPSA match. Its no different than a side match afterward. I don't see where you're getting hypocrisy from.

how can you have a different match during a USPSA match?

So I can come shoot your match "cowboy action rules" during your USPSA match?

I wouldn't think so.

I thought a fundamental of this sport is that the rules are non negotiable, governing the match start to finish.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre

[Alaskapopo]

"Seems like some people on here just want to kill having fun. (ie shooting PCC)"

I run two large USPSA programs, and put in an easy 300+ hours a years doing so, not even counting working majors, other disciplines, events, and club Board duties that may be related.

I am indeed skeptical of PCC Division, and have yet to be convinced it's a good idea, yes.

Accuse me of anything you like, but wanting to kill having fun probably won't be a sustainable charge.

Thats great you put the work in. But PCC won't cause you more work especially if MD's are given discretion on allowing the division or not.

Pat

Edited January 29, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[DocMedic]

Well looks like we'll have a draft made by DNROI up by the next Board Meeting for PCC. I believe that will be end of March, now how does that work if we would like to make suggestions? So I just go through my Area Director?

[MarkCO]

Ran 6 majors last year, ran a bunch of locals too. I KNOW PCC won't cause any issues because I have run it, and tested it within several match formats. If there was any inkling it would harm USPSA or damage the matches, I would not be in favor of it. The fear is fear of change or fear of the unknown. Status Quo is no longer a surviving formula in the competitive shooting market.

IF USPSA had been less entrenched years ago, there would be no IDPA, ICORE, 3GN, USCA, and maybe a few others. No, USPSA can not be all things to all action shooters, but if the leaders had been more passionate about promotion of the brand and service of the customers, then USPSA would be over 100K members now and be running all kinds of matches in the action shooting sports. There are "discipline" elitists killing matches and clubs all over the country because they only like "their" style of competition. If that is you, then you are part of the problem. All trigger time is good time. I do not prefer to shoot IDPA, but I have started two IDPA clubs at two ranges...because it was good for the industry and the shooting sports. I had never shot a Rimfire Challenge match, but I agreed to be the MD for the RFC worlds for 3 years...because it was good for the industry and the shooting sports. So I am putting my money and my time where my mouth is, and I do not want for any sport to decline at any point in the future.

I am not saying debate is wrong, but I will say aversion to the unknown is wrong. We have, for the first time in the 21st century, a president who is full time, is passionate about growing USPSA and the entire industry and shooting sports as a whole. Yep, I will jump on that bandwagon even if people try to push me off because growth of the competitive shooting sports is one of many tools that may help save the sport, as well as the political benefits that our host here does not allow us to discuss.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

BOD minutes are out.

Proposed division and rules will be revisited at next BOD meeting.

Let's catch our breath, then really debate this!

[Ultimo-Hombre]

DERP,

20 minutes late, changing diapers is killing me.

Hey guys I get it that growth is a good thing.

This is just a big step... We are gonna change the fundamental structure of the matches, going from pistol shooting, to multi/ rifle shooting. Perhaps before you take a big steamer on the faces of guys who are into the sport as it currently exists, just because you have/ want a 9mm SBR.....

[2MoreChains]

DERP,

20 minutes late, changing diapers is killing me.

Hey guys I get it that growth is a good thing.

This is just a big step... We are gonna change the fundamental structure of the matches, going from pistol shooting, to multi/ rifle shooting. Perhaps before you take a big steamer on the faces of guys who are into the sport as it currently exists, just because you have/ want a 9mm SBR.....

So Amigo, what if at our local matches we were to restrict registration to just one gun, keep using the same type of stages that we currently shoot (i.e. not biased towards any one division), require use of a bag or rack instead of allowing somebody to sling it Timmy-style while not shooting, and basically treat PCC as just one more division just like we would if a wheel gun showed up in Nampa or Emmett for a change. How 'bout then are we still killing off your mojo?

I think there are maybe something like 3 people in the Treasure Valley who will jump on the PCC bandwagon, maybe a few more later on if it takes off. But I don't have any intention of turning our monthly matches into something they are not. But if there was enough interest to hold a PCC-only match I'd probably entertain that idea as well -provided there are enough people.

PS, you know you want one.

[Strick]

Ran 6 majors last year, ran a bunch of locals too. I KNOW PCC won't cause any issues because I have run it, and tested it within several match formats. If there was any inkling it would harm USPSA or damage the matches, I would not be in favor of it. The fear is fear of change or fear of the unknown. Status Quo is no longer a surviving formula in the competitive shooting market.

IF USPSA had been less entrenched years ago, there would be no IDPA, ICORE, 3GN, USCA, and maybe a few others. No, USPSA can not be all things to all action shooters, but if the leaders had been more passionate about promotion of the brand and service of the customers, then USPSA would be over 100K members now and be running all kinds of matches in the action shooting sports. There are "discipline" elitists killing matches and clubs all over the country because they only like "their" style of competition. If that is you, then you are part of the problem. All trigger time is good time. I do not prefer to shoot IDPA, but I have started two IDPA clubs at two ranges...because it was good for the industry and the shooting sports. I had never shot a Rimfire Challenge match, but I agreed to be the MD for the RFC worlds for 3 years...because it was good for the industry and the shooting sports. So I am putting my money and my time where my mouth is, and I do not want for any sport to decline at any point in the future.

I am not saying debate is wrong, but I will say aversion to the unknown is wrong. We have, for the first time in the 21st century, a president who is full time, is passionate about growing USPSA and the entire industry and shooting sports as a whole. Yep, I will jump on that bandwagon even if people try to push me off because growth of the competitive shooting sports is one of many tools that may help save the sport, as well as the political benefits that our host here does not allow us to discuss.

Awesome, so if you don't think a carbine should be shot during a pistol match then you are an anti shooting sports elitist that just hates change.

[Strick]

I think there are maybe something like 3 people in the Treasure Valley who will jump on the PCC bandwagon, maybe a few more later on if it takes off.

That is why I keep asking what is the point of it then. I keep hearing "PCC's are fun" and they are, I have had one in the past but I don't hear anyone where I am or at the matches I go to ever mentioning them........ever. I can't remember the last time I saw one being shot.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

DERP,

20 minutes late, changing diapers is killing me.

Hey guys I get it that growth is a good thing.

This is just a big step... We are gonna change the fundamental structure of the matches, going from pistol shooting, to multi/ rifle shooting. Perhaps before you take a big steamer on the faces of guys who are into the sport as it currently exists, just because you have/ want a 9mm SBR.....

So Amigo, what if at our local matches we were to restrict registration to just one gun, keep using the same type of stages that we currently shoot (i.e. not biased towards any one division), require use of a bag or rack instead of allowing somebody to sling it Timmy-style while not shooting, and basically treat PCC as just one more division just like we would if a wheel gun showed up in Nampa or Emmett for a change. How 'bout then are we still killing off your mojo?

I think there are maybe something like 3 people in the Treasure Valley who will jump on the PCC bandwagon, maybe a few more later on if it takes off. But I don't have any intention of turning our monthly matches into something they are not. But if there was enough interest to hold a PCC-only match I'd probably entertain that idea as well -provided there are enough people.

PS, you know you want one.

As I'm sure you have observed, I think rifle shooting is best left to a separate match. My primary concern is the incongruancies between the current USPSA rules and the accommodations that would have to be made to allow rifles at an existing pistol competition format.

Now that said, if the marching orders are to include rifles, the approach you have put forth makes sense.

First off, having competitors choose, and shoot only one division makes sense and fits with how we do business.

As far as the operations of a match, I just hope we have a clear set of rules (expectations) to meld pistol and rifle operations together.

Thanks for the questions, and while I'm happy to engage in online bar fights, when this all gets ironed out, I am gonna support your leadership of the great Idaho section!

And yes I do want one!

[jester121]

A clear set of rules is, of course, a must -- but it needs to have some flexibility built in for variations in how some gun clubs operate. For example, selling a certain local club on "it's okay for competitors to have it slung over their shoulder because chamber flag" would be extremely difficult, and if USPSA rules are that explicit, we probably couldn't offer the division.

If they build in some sensible options in the rulebook (like "sling OR cart OR bagged/cased, with a chamber flag, subject to local rules") then it might be easier.

[Flash74]

Wow, this thread is full of derp. FYI, for everyone, don't be afraid of something new. Try it before you dismiss it. Ignorance is truly bliss If you are not willing to try something before condemning it. For those clubs which have tried it, how did it work out? Did you have to redesign your pistol stages to accomodate the rifles? I bet not, that is not the point of PCC. Just shoot a pistol caliber caliber carbine on your existing pistol stages. If you have not tried it then you truly have no experience , sure you can have opinions, but there is no experience to back it up.

I will be willing to bet that this will be a provisional division at the next BOD meeting and will be much more popular than carry optics in a short time period as long as the BOD dont screw it up by neutering the division like they did with CO. CO got a boost by revising the rules but they stuck with the 10rd limit, very bad decision in my opinion. Who carries a fill size pistol with an optic and only 10 rounds? A 141.25mm mag makes much more sense. But I digress.

You may not agree with me, but until you run PCC as part of a pistol match you are just guessing if it will work. Try it first, then report your experiences if it will or won't work. My guess it will be seamless to integrate as I have experienced. Rules took all of 5 minutes to come up with to integrate the carbines into a pistol match. Holster start? Low ready. Table start? Table start. Uprange? Low ready facing uprange and turn keeping muzzle within a 3' circle around the shooter. Classifiers, add a sentence for PCC. It is really simple.

[2MoreChains]

I think there are maybe something like 3 people in the Treasure Valley who will jump on the PCC bandwagon, maybe a few more later on if it takes off.

That is why I keep asking what is the point of it then. I keep hearing "PCC's are fun" and they are, I have had one in the past but I don't hear anyone where I am or at the matches I go to ever mentioning them........ever. I can't remember the last time I saw one being shot.

Prior to CO becoming a thing, I think I saw maybe 3 of them in the wild. 6 months later we have 2 CO division shooters at our matches and we support their participation at our matches alongside the more popular Limited and Production divisions.

Based on what I read about clubs already offering PCC at their local matches it sure seems like there are enough people out there looking for a place to play with them, but not enough to justify their own match. I've been trying to get a sense for how many people at my club would be into this and the numbers so far are pretty low. So piggy-backing them onto a USPSA match seems like a better option than staying after the main match or finding a free weekend to hold a PCC match.

Those clubs already doing it are probably applying some common-sense modifications to accommodate the PCCs, such as table starts if hands need to be somewhere specific, low-ready or port-arms for the default start position, safe carrying when coming to the line, securing the PCC when not shooting... None of which seem very difficult to me or for match management.

Full disclosure, yeah I have a PCC and enjoy shooting it. I'll probably shoot it at matches If I get the chance, but I will also continue to be a pistol shooter as well.

[2MoreChains]

DERP,

20 minutes late, changing diapers is killing me.

Hey guys I get it that growth is a good thing.

This is just a big step... We are gonna change the fundamental structure of the matches, going from pistol shooting, to multi/ rifle shooting. Perhaps before you take a big steamer on the faces of guys who are into the sport as it currently exists, just because you have/ want a 9mm SBR.....

So Amigo, what if at our local matches we were to restrict registration to just one gun, keep using the same type of stages that we currently shoot (i.e. not biased towards any one division), require use of a bag or rack instead of allowing somebody to sling it Timmy-style while not shooting, and basically treat PCC as just one more division just like we would if a wheel gun showed up in Nampa or Emmett for a change. How 'bout then are we still killing off your mojo?

I think there are maybe something like 3 people in the Treasure Valley who will jump on the PCC bandwagon, maybe a few more later on if it takes off. But I don't have any intention of turning our monthly matches into something they are not. But if there was enough interest to hold a PCC-only match I'd probably entertain that idea as well -provided there are enough people.

PS, you know you want one.

As I'm sure you have observed, I think rifle shooting is best left to a separate match. My primary concern is the incongruancies between the current USPSA rules and the accommodations that would have to be made to allow rifles at an existing pistol competition format.

Now that said, if the marching orders are to include rifles, the approach you have put forth makes sense.

First off, having competitors choose, and shoot only one division makes sense and fits with how we do business.

As far as the operations of a match, I just hope we have a clear set of rules (expectations) to meld pistol and rifle operations together.

Thanks for the questions, and while I'm happy to engage in online bar fights, when this all gets ironed out, I am gonna support your leadership of the great Idaho section!

And yes I do want one!

I knew it, you're a closet PCC'er. It's OK to covet thy neighbor's gun (well, maybe not YOUR neighbor since I know who you live next to...).

I was not a big fan of the people shooting multiple guns at our SC matches since it slowed things down for the one-gunners, but that is a MD decision at Level 1 matches. A few years ago I said you could shoot a second gun at the end of season SC match but only after you finished shooting the first gun. That caused some grumbling, but we made it stick. I've tried to give the current MDs free reign on how they run their SC matches now, and if they want to allow 2 guns at registration that's their decision as MD. I know they are monitoring the match flow and are cognizant of what is going on since they are also out there shooting and trying to get done before dark.

I'm pretty confident that whatever NROI comes up with as far as rulebook modifications will be common sense and be safe. I'm also confident that they will be considering match flow and take into account the rules will have to be applicable to all 400-ish USPSA clubs around the country.

As far as stage design getting biased towards PCC, I doubt that will happen any more than we don't bias stages towards the other divisions. Yeah there is the 8-rnd rule so lo-cap guys don't have to do standing reloads (unless they miss) but I don't see stage designers suddenly adding 50 yd plate racks or hard partials on swingers (or at least anymore than some might be doing now) to challenge the PCC'ers. I think most stage designers cater to average shooter with regard to difficulty, and club matches attract shooters based on the quality of their stages -so it's in the MDs interest to make sure they keep offering pistol-sequel stages.

Or at least that is how I plan to approach PCC inclusion into our matches.

[Sarge]

Wow, this thread is full of derp. FYI, for everyone, don't be afraid of something new. Try it before you dismiss it. Ignorance is truly bliss If you are not willing to try something before condemning it. For those clubs which have tried it, how did it work out? Did you have to redesign your pistol stages to accomodate the rifles? I bet not, that is not the point of PCC. Just shoot a pistol caliber caliber carbine on your existing pistol stages. If you have not tried it then you truly have no experience , sure you can have opinions, but there is no experience to back it up.

I will be willing to bet that this will be a provisional division at the next BOD meeting and will be much more popular than carry optics in a short time period as long as the BOD dont screw it up by neutering the division like they did with CO. CO got a boost by revising the rules but they stuck with the 10rd limit, very bad decision in my opinion. Who carries a fill size pistol with an optic and only 10 rounds? A 141.25mm mag makes much more sense. But I digress.

You may not agree with me, but until you run PCC as part of a pistol match you are just guessing if it will work. Try it first, then report your experiences if it will or won't work. My guess it will be seamless to integrate as I have experienced. Rules took all of 5 minutes to come up with to integrate the carbines into a pistol match. Holster start? Low ready. Table start? Table start. Uprange? Low ready facing uprange and turn keeping muzzle within a 3' circle around the shooter. Classifiers, add a sentence for PCC. It is really simple.

Derp? Like starting facing up range with a rifle in your hands? No way no how am I even shooting a match that does something that friggin stupid! Edited January 30, 2016 by Sarge

[PKT1106]

PCC on table, muzzle facing downrange, loaded or unloaded start. Shooter can be facing up or downrange and have to retrieve the PCC at the start signal.

[Nik Habicht]

A clear set of rules is, of course, a must -- but it needs to have some flexibility built in for variations in how some gun clubs operate. For example, selling a certain local club on "it's okay for competitors to have it slung over their shoulder because chamber flag" would be extremely difficult, and if USPSA rules are that explicit, we probably couldn't offer the division.

If they build in some sensible options in the rulebook (like "sling OR cart OR bagged/cased, with a chamber flag, subject to local rules") then it might be easier.

I don't think you're ever going to get "subject to local rules" written in the rulebook......

'cause then we're not consistent from match to match. And what do you want to do to people who violate the local rules?

[2MoreChains]

What's wrong with inserting a chamber flag at ICHD in order to declare Range is Clear? Then carry it muzzle down to where your bag/case/kart is, where it remains until you get the make ready for your next stage. Wouldn't that satisfy the most Fudd-ite of clubs? I know it would be sufficient for mine.

[UTraab]

What's wrong with inserting a chamber flag at ICHD in order to declare Range is Clear? Then carry it muzzle down to where your bag/case/kart is, where it remains until you get the make ready for your next stage. Wouldn't that satisfy the most Fudd-ite of clubs? I know it would be sufficient for mine.

That's exactly what we do.

[Flash74]

Derp? Like starting facing up range with a rifle in your hands? No way no how am I even shooting a match that does something that friggin stupid!

C'mon Sarge, think about it. No different than starting facing uprange with a loaded holstered pistol. A shooter can draw early sweeping the squad just as easily as someone can raise a rifle early sweeping the squad. It all comes down to safe gun handling.

I have seen many more 180 breaks with pistols at USPSA matches than I have seen with rifles at 3gun matches. In fact, most of the 180 DQ's I have seen at 3gun matches have been with the pistol. Pistols are so much lighter and easier to move around than long guns.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Flash74