Poll for possible changes for CO

[DocMedic]

Sure you can JB weld a Reddot to your pistol, but if it falls off you'll be moved to open

[zhunter]

Nothing in those rule changes stops me from shooting my Glock 34 MOS with FF3, so I'm happy.

EDIT: Oh I can add more grip tape!

Can I jb weld an optic on my 34?

If I classify this weekend will I need an optic on my 34?

I'm pretty sure those rules are effective immediately

I will look into it, there are two classifier matches this weekend.

I'm in Doha this weekend, wish I could have shot the classifiers

[teros135]

If you don't want to spend the money on an expensive gun then don't. I have never felt that I am out gunned using a Glock in Prod, the fact is I switched to it after shooting a Witness and CZ supposed hottness.

I think the most interesting thing is requiring a dot, that is an interesting twist. My question is......what happens if my dot breaks mid match, can I use my co-witnessed backup sights or back up gun without a dot?

If the dot breaks in Open, what do you do? Shoot another gun, which is often either a regular Limited gun (major) or a Production gun (minor).

And if a gun breaks down it often ruins a stage, so you're out of contention for the Winnebago anyway.

(Forgot to mention - coming to a match with a non-optic gun is probably cheating.)

Edited January 29, 2016 by teros135

[zhunter]

If you don't want to spend the money on an expensive gun then don't. I have never felt that I am out gunned using a Glock in Prod, the fact is I switched to it after shooting a Witness and CZ supposed hottness.

I think the most interesting thing is requiring a dot, that is an interesting twist. My question is......what happens if my dot breaks mid match, can I use my co-witnessed backup sights or back up gun without a dot?

If the dot breaks in Open, what do you do? Shoot another gun, which is often either a regular Limited gun (major) or a Production gun (minor).

And if a gun breaks down it often ruins a stage, so you're out of contention for the Winnebago anyway.

At a local match I typically take 1 gun, anything beyond a Level 1 match I have a backup gun. I'm sure most of you do too.

[bret]

If you don't want to spend the money on an expensive gun then don't. I have never felt that I am out gunned using a Glock in Prod, the fact is I switched to it after shooting a Witness and CZ supposed hottness.

I think the most interesting thing is requiring a dot, that is an interesting twist. My question is......what happens if my dot breaks mid match, can I use my co-witnessed backup sights or back up gun without a dot?

If the dot breaks in Open, what do you do? Shoot another gun, which is often either a regular Limited gun (major) or a Production gun (minor).

And if a gun breaks down it often ruins a stage, so you're out of contention for the Winnebago anyway.

At a local match I typically take 1 gun, anything beyond a Level 1 match I have a backup gun. I'm sure most of you do too.

Past weekend at our local match a buddy mine had trouble with his open gun so I loaned him an STI LIMITED gun in .40 so he could shoot the last stage.

If he was in carry optics couldn't do it since an optic is required.

I think requiring an optic is a bad idea.

And this is a good example why.

[teros135]

I love the changes, Production Optics/Carry Optics was never about cost to me, it was only about shooting a production gun with a slide mounted optic and minor ammo.

Cost, not important. I can afford any gun I want. I always laughed at the "welfare" remarks

Why to go BoD

So, right there in your own words it's not about cost. It's about shooting a cheap open gun.

Correct in that it was never about cost for me. I laughed every time you posted "Welfare Optics".

Production with a dot is nowhere near Open. But you have never opened your closed thinking.

10 rounds versus 30 rounds

No Comp versus compensated

No Magwell versus Magwell

Slide mounted versus Frame Mounted

Restriction of holster and mag pouch location versus no restrictions

Minor scoring versus Major scoring

Ability to buy over the counter ammo versus mandatory reloading or buying of custom ammo

Yep, they are exactly the same.

ZHunter's list is what makes CO. It's different from Open. It's unique. It's a place for Everyman to shoot his/her regular carry gun with an optic on it. It's affordable.

But you're not going to be "competitive" with this gun (or any gun, for that matter) if you can't shoot well, move fast, etc. There's this huge myth being propagated that you're not "competitive" in a division without the really expensive equipment, but it's not true, except maybe at the top (well, not there, either, looking at the Production Nats last year).

I've never been sure who folks were talking about being "competitive" against, anyway. We have Divisions, and Classes, and even Categories to compete in, and we compete at the level we're competent at.

At the end of the day it's about the skill, the focus, the dedication to practice and dry firing and matches. The equipment is one factor, but IMO not even the most important one. Jerry Miculek or Rob Leatham could spank us good with a water pistol and one hand tied behind their back.

Edited January 29, 2016 by teros135

[zhunter]

As a follow up to teros135's post, the only important factor in a competition gun is it's reliability!

Light, heavy, expensive or cheap does not matter.

Reliable is ALL that matters, and that includes ammo

[alma]

If you don't want to spend the money on an expensive gun then don't. I have never felt that I am out gunned using a Glock in Prod, the fact is I switched to it after shooting a Witness and CZ supposed hottness.

I think the most interesting thing is requiring a dot, that is an interesting twist. My question is......what happens if my dot breaks mid match, can I use my co-witnessed backup sights or back up gun without a dot?

If the dot breaks in Open, what do you do? Shoot another gun, which is often either a regular Limited gun (major) or a Production gun (minor).

And if a gun breaks down it often ruins a stage, so you're out of contention for the Winnebago anyway.

At a local match I typically take 1 gun, anything beyond a Level 1 match I have a backup gun. I'm sure most of you do too.

Past weekend at our local match a buddy mine had trouble with his open gun so I loaned him an STI LIMITED gun in .40 so he could shoot the last stage.

If he was in carry optics couldn't do it since an optic is required.

I think requiring an optic is a bad idea.

And this is a good example why.

Also, he couldn't have done it because your STI LIMITED gun isn't remotely legal for CO. You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to find reasons why CO is a bad idea.

[JakeMartens]

so if he was shooting Single Stack and his gun took a dump on him what would he have done?

His revolver broke, his Production gun shit the bed?

[bret]

If you don't want to spend the money on an expensive gun then don't. I have never felt that I am out gunned using a Glock in Prod, the fact is I switched to it after shooting a Witness and CZ supposed hottness.

I think the most interesting thing is requiring a dot, that is an interesting twist. My question is......what happens if my dot breaks mid match, can I use my co-witnessed backup sights or back up gun without a dot?

If the dot breaks in Open, what do you do? Shoot another gun, which is often either a regular Limited gun (major) or a Production gun (minor).

And if a gun breaks down it often ruins a stage, so you're out of contention for the Winnebago anyway.

At a local match I typically take 1 gun, anything beyond a Level 1 match I have a backup gun. I'm sure most of you do too.

Past weekend at our local match a buddy mine had trouble with his open gun so I loaned him an STI LIMITED gun in .40 so he could shoot the last stage.

If he was in carry optics couldn't do it since an optic is required.

I think requiring an optic is a bad idea.

And this is a good example why.

Also, he couldn't have done it because your STI LIMITED gun isn't remotely legal for CO. You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to find reasons why CO is a bad idea.

Never said it was a bad idea, requiring the optic is a bad idea imo.

[Sarge]

I can see a slide ride chopped up and glued to the slide, no lens, co witnessed.

[Gooldylocks]

I can see a slide ride chopped up and glued to the slide, no lens, co witnessed.

But.. but... Why?

You shoot open. You know that a dot is faster. Why would anyone go to such great lengths to shoot irons?

If it is literally just to troll USPSA at the Nats or something, seems like an expensive joke to me. Cause you aren't gonna win, end of story.

[Southpaw]

If you don't want to spend the money on an expensive gun then don't. I have never felt that I am out gunned using a Glock in Prod, the fact is I switched to it after shooting a Witness and CZ supposed hottness.

I think the most interesting thing is requiring a dot, that is an interesting twist. My question is......what happens if my dot breaks mid match, can I use my co-witnessed backup sights or back up gun without a dot?

If the dot breaks in Open, what do you do? Shoot another gun, which is often either a regular Limited gun (major) or a Production gun (minor).

And if a gun breaks down it often ruins a stage, so you're out of contention for the Winnebago anyway.

At a local match I typically take 1 gun, anything beyond a Level 1 match I have a backup gun. I'm sure most of you do too.

Past weekend at our local match a buddy mine had trouble with his open gun so I loaned him an STI LIMITED gun in .40 so he could shoot the last stage.

If he was in carry optics couldn't do it since an optic is required.

I think requiring an optic is a bad idea.

And this is a good example why.

Agreed. Previously I could have used my production gun as a backup to my CO gun if the gun breaks mid match. Now I can't. I've been enjoying CO, but certainly not enough to buy 2 of those guns. So that means I can't bring a backup gun so now I'll never shoot CO at a major match...thanks BOD...

I definitely would not travel to a major match without a backup gun. Heck even for local club matches I usually throw a backup in the range bag. Don't want my gun to die on the first stage and now I woke up early and drove to the range for nothing.

[bret]

so if he was shooting Single Stack and his gun took a dump on him what would he have done?

His revolver broke, his Production gun shit the bed?

If his single stack broke I would have walked to my truck and grabbed one of my .45's for him to use.

If it was production he could shoot my Glock 26, revolver, sorry about his luck.

[teros135]

There must be a way to handle the occasional gun fart in CO. Perhaps the rule could say that you must start with a legit CO gun with optic (it's CO, after all). If you have a legitimate mechanical failure or safety issue you can appeal to the RM to substitute another gun that otherwise meets the division rules, except for the optic. I suspect we wouldn't be seeing this too often, unless somebody's gaming somehow. This would keep the division clean and aimed at the purpose for which it was intended.

[ZackJones]

USPSA could fix this nonsense talk by adding one word to the release:

Required use of a functioning slide-mounted optic, prohibiting guns without an optic.

It's going to be interesting to see if these changes really do grow the division. I think I'll start tracking the number of classified CO shooters, per month to see.

[teros135]

Yes. Good thinking.

[bret]

Seems like to BOD should have thought the optic required out a little better.

If you shot iron sights in carry optics, who are you hurting other than yourself?

Open you can use optics but not required.

I plan on classifying in open with my limited gun, won't be as fast as a true open gun but it meets the requirements.

[Nimitz]

The average American has far less disposable income than in the past, that is a consequence of a recession that has lasted for years. USPSA had an opportunity to provide a division that would allow more people to participate and be competitive with lower cost guns.

I can afford any gun I want to, but its not about what it good for me or you. Its what would enable someone with a lower paying job to compete in this sport, or how a parent could provide a gun for their kid so they can take up the sport with a red-dot without having to drop thousands of dollars.

There is a bigger picture here and the BOD is either unaware of it, does not thinks its important, or is pandering to the CZ/Tanfoglio crowd.

Why is making the rules less restrictive pandering to certain gun manufacturers? The so-called 'heavy guns" are already allowed in Production ...

This rule change plays right into your argument about 'cost' since in allows people who already own an otherwise legal gun to play now by just adding an optic ..

Even though I could buy another gun without issue I didn't want to just for this division. Now, however I'll buy an optic and play ...

[Nimitz]

If you don't want to spend the money on an expensive gun then don't. I have never felt that I am out gunned using a Glock in Prod, the fact is I switched to it after shooting a Witness and CZ supposed hottness.

I think the most interesting thing is requiring a dot, that is an interesting twist. My question is......what happens if my dot breaks mid match, can I use my co-witnessed backup sights or back up gun without a dot?

If the dot breaks in Open, what do you do? Shoot another gun, which is often either a regular Limited gun (major) or a Production gun (minor).

And if a gun breaks down it often ruins a stage, so you're out of contention for the Winnebago anyway.

At a local match I typically take 1 gun, anything beyond a Level 1 match I have a backup gun. I'm sure most of you do too.

Past weekend at our local match a buddy mine had trouble with his open gun so I loaned him an STI LIMITED gun in .40 so he could shoot the last stage.

If he was in carry optics couldn't do it since an optic is required.

I think requiring an optic is a bad idea.

And this is a good example why.

Agreed. Previously I could have used my production gun as a backup to my CO gun if the gun breaks mid match. Now I can't. I've been enjoying CO, but certainly not enough to buy 2 of those guns. So that means I can't bring a backup gun so now I'll never shoot CO at a major match...thanks BOD...

I definitely would not travel to a major match without a backup gun. Heck even for local club matches I usually throw a backup in the range bag. Don't want my gun to die on the first stage and now I woke up early and drove to the range for nothing.

Guess I must be considered a risk taker .... Never had a backup gun ... I do have a nice collection of spare parts that I bring to matches but not another gun ...

[Steve RA]

It seems to me that if it's going to be "Carry Optics" then there should be the weight limit and any gun should be allowed if it meets the weight limit and has the slide mounted optic. I think it would be fun but I've got a FF III on a 1911 .45 which doesn't meet the current requirements ( does make the weight and slide mounted optic however)

[d_striker]

It seems to me that if it's going to be "Carry Optics" then there should be the weight limit and any gun should be allowed if it meets the weight limit and has the slide mounted optic. I think it would be fun but I've got a FF III on a 1911 .45 which doesn't meet the current requirements ( does make the weight and slide mounted optic however)

A barrel length limit would be more appropriate if there were to be any restrictions imposed related to the term "Carry."

[d_striker]

The "heavy guns have an advantage" argument was nonsense from the start and it's getting lamer every time I hear it.

I can say that my metal framed guns have better accuracy and much better ergonomics than any plastic pistol I've shot or own. In that sense, perhaps they do have an advantage.

What's stopping from Glock, Springfield, Sig, etc from coming out with a more accurate pistol. If weight is truly an advantage, why don't they overmold tungsten weights into the frame to bring the overall weight up?

Perhaps instead of crying to the former USPSA Pres and having a division made just for them, they should put that energy into innovation.

[Southpaw]

Guess I must be considered a risk taker .... Never had a backup gun ... I do have a nice collection of spare parts that I bring to matches but not another gun ...

My backup gun contains all the spare parts I may need . I would not travel to a major match without a backup gun. Long drive or flight, hotel, taking off work, match fees and then your slide cracks on the first stage, I doubt you have a spare CO slide in your parts bin. So with this rule I'll never shoot CO at a major match.

I wouldn't care if they said this is just a temporary rule for only one year in order to get better data on who's actually shooting CO guns, but it shouldn't be permanent.

It seems to me that if it's going to be "Carry Optics"...

That's one thing missing from these rule updates - changing the name away from "Carry Optics".

[Richc2048]

I've always liked the idea of not creating a new division but making L-10 the slide mount optic division.

1. Holster position would allow appendix carry.

2. Stippling, slide cuts etc... Would be allowed.

3. 1911's could compete.

4. It would include MANY people that want to try it. The gamers, the timmies, the sight impaired, and pretty much anyone that shoots already to use there existing gun. Limited, production, and single stack guys could dove tail sight their optic and go to town!