XL 650 - cases sometimes catching on resizing die

[bozrdang]

12 hours ago, saibot said:

Did you ever figure out what the issue was? Having the same thing with my 650. 

 

No. I never figured out why. Dillon was no help either.

[Sarge]

18 minutes ago, bozrdang said:

 

No. I never figured out why. Dillon was no help either.

Call Dillon and insist on a new toolhead. There are documented cases here of them being slightly out of spec.

[saibot]

Like I mentioned, I started having the same issue and it was driving me crazy. I poured though all of the posts here about folks having the same problem and checked all of the things people suggested. I'm happy to report that I did wind up fixing it. It was several things in aggregate/tolerance stacking that was causing my stage 1 issue. The biggest single issue was that the two bolts that fasten the shell plate holder on top of the ram, had come loose. I had gotten the alignment tool and used it several years ago and got it as close as possible, but it still rubbed a bit, but there was no more adjustment. It was good enough, but the screws did loosen up over time. I'm glad I checked! I realigned it and added a generous amount of Loktite. I put a piece of brass in stage one and clamped my tool head in place (I used the Uniquetek kit to thread/clamp my toolhead to the press). While the case was still in the Lee U-Die, I loosened and tightened the lock ring of the die. Cleaned and lubed it all, and she's running good as new, and only the occasional hit on the sizing die.
One other thing that I'll mention that I did that no one else did, is that the little spring loaded primer seater doo-dad would seat the primer and kept the handle from moving any further back, which also kept the case from being pushed all the way into the shell plate. I used a ring to shim out the primer seater assembly and it gave me a bit more pressure on the case.
Anyway, I hope you get your press running, too.

[gerritm]

13 hours ago, saibot said:

Like I mentioned, I started having the same issue and it was driving me crazy. I poured though all of the posts here about folks having the same problem and checked all of the things people suggested. I'm happy to report that I did wind up fixing it. It was several things in aggregate/tolerance stacking that was causing my stage 1 issue. The biggest single issue was that the two bolts that fasten the shell plate holder on top of the ram, had come loose. I had gotten the alignment tool and used it several years ago and got it as close as possible, but it still rubbed a bit, but there was no more adjustment. It was good enough, but the screws did loosen up over time. I'm glad I checked! I realigned it and added a generous amount of Loktite. I put a piece of brass in stage one and clamped my tool head in place (I used the Uniquetek kit to thread/clamp my toolhead to the press). While the case was still in the Lee U-Die, I loosened and tightened the lock ring of the die. Cleaned and lubed it all, and she's running good as new, and only the occasional hit on the sizing die.
One other thing that I'll mention that I did that no one else did, is that the little spring loaded primer seater doo-dad would seat the primer and kept the handle from moving any further back, which also kept the case from being pushed all the way into the shell plate. I used a ring to shim out the primer seater assembly and it gave me a bit more pressure on the case.
Anyway, I hope you get your press running, too.

What is the shim you did? I have had this same problem for quite awhile, but not all the time. Have done all you said and still get a few cases that stick going into the sizing die. Maybe 1 or 2 out of 10, but random.

 

Thought it was just different brass dimensions causing this. If there is no case in the primer plate opening it does not happen so I have figured it is the primer causing it, but not sure how to fix.

 

Just installed a MBF and love it, until this happens and you have to reach around to push case in.

 

gerritm

[saibot]

53 minutes ago, gerritm said:

What is the shim you did? I have had this same problem for quite awhile, but not all the time. Have done all you said and still get a few cases that stick going into the sizing die. Maybe 1 or 2 out of 10, but random.

 

Thought it was just different brass dimensions causing this. If there is no case in the primer plate opening it does not happen so I have figured it is the primer causing it, but not sure how to fix.

 

Just installed a MBF and love it, until this happens and you have to reach around to push case in.

 

gerritm

 

I used a part of a snap ring. You could stack some small washers in there if you find some that'll fit. Perhaps form a paperclip around a bolt and use that. It didn't take much to give me a little extra throw.

[gerritm]

Not sure where, are you talking about? Are you taking the primer punch assembly out and putting the shim there? Picture maybe?

 

gerritm

[saibot]

1 hour ago, gerritm said:

Not sure where, are you talking about? Are you taking the primer punch assembly out and putting the shim there? Picture maybe?

 

gerritm

Yes, it was the primer punch. Sorry, I forgot the name of the part. You can try unscrewing it a couple of turns and test it to see if it's worth doing anything.

[ddc]

10 hours ago, saibot said:

Yes, it was the primer punch. Sorry, I forgot the name of the part. You can try unscrewing it a couple of turns and test it to see if it's worth doing anything.

 

Well... be careful here...I might be misunderstanding the suggestion and I can't argue with positive results but...

 

I've had two occasions where the primer punch unscrewed far enough to leave high primers. Didn't notice it until I had way too many...

 

I'm just guessing here cuz I've never dealt with this exact problem but it seems to me that the primary issue might be somewhere else and shimming the primer punch is just masking a better solution.

 

However if the primer punch is indeed the culprit then that is definitely a problem that Dillon should deal with. That  would be either a defect or something has broke or worn beyond tolerance.

 

[saibot]

10 hours ago, ddc said:

 

Well... be careful here...I might be misunderstanding the suggestion and I can't argue with positive results but...

 

I've had two occasions where the primer punch unscrewed far enough to leave high primers. Didn't notice it until I had way too many...

 

I'm just guessing here cuz I've never dealt with this exact problem but it seems to me that the primary issue might be somewhere else and shimming the primer punch is just masking a better solution.

 

However if the primer punch is indeed the culprit then that is definitely a problem that Dillon should deal with. That  would be either a defect or something has broke or worn beyond tolerance.

 

You are not wrong. In fact, I had the primer punch back out and cause an issue which gave me the idea to shim it out. I think it's a tolerance stacking issue with my press, the thickness of the primer, the depth of the case's primer pocket, etc. But I would sometimes need just a bit more throw to get the case into the proper position in stage 1. Adding a small shim still allows me to very solidly seat the primer, but gives me a bit more margin.
I'm sure it's a bit of a bandaid for other issues, but every little bit helps.

[Dazhi]

I also have this issue.  

Was using Lee die and had about 1 every 20 rounds.  Then I switched to Redding Pro die, and it is now worse about 1 out of 10 rounds crushed.  I will try Dillon die next... 

I have used the alignment tool, greased the station 1 locator bottom, got a new shell plate, etc.  Nothing helped.  

I suspect it's a design issue with the 650.  I have not seen 1050 users having this issue. 

[saibot]

10 hours ago, Dazhi said:

I also have this issue.  

Was using Lee die and had about 1 every 20 rounds.  Then I switched to Redding Pro die, and it is now worse about 1 out of 10 rounds crushed.  I will try Dillon die next... 

I have used the alignment tool, greased the station 1 locator bottom, got a new shell plate, etc.  Nothing helped.  

I suspect it's a design issue with the 650.  I have not seen 1050 users having this issue. 

If you have trimmed the spring under the detent ball, try putting a new spring in and see if that corrects the index issue. There are better ways to correct the powder spilling problem that don't result in poor indexing. This was my primary issue and replacing the spring pretty much took car of it. 

[Sarge]

10 hours ago, Dazhi said:

I also have this issue.  

Was using Lee die and had about 1 every 20 rounds.  Then I switched to Redding Pro die, and it is now worse about 1 out of 10 rounds crushed.  I will try Dillon die next... 

I have used the alignment tool, greased the station 1 locator bottom, got a new shell plate, etc.  Nothing helped.  

I suspect it's a design issue with the 650.  I have not seen 1050 users having this issue. 

Design issue!?! My 650 exhibits none of the problems you mention. I run a Udie with MBF AT EASILY1000 rounds per hour if I feel like it.

[ddc]

6 hours ago, Sarge said:

Design issue!?! My 650 exhibits none of the problems you mention. I run a Udie with MBF AT EASILY1000 rounds per hour if I feel like it.

 

I agree.

This subject comes up on occasion and the usual solution is setting your sizing die with a case inserted all the way into the die fixes the problem.

(Which is exactly what the setup instructions specify as I recall.)

Having the shell plate bolts loosen obviously causes a problem.

And the primer punch can interfere with the shell plate.

I seem to recall a problem when the case feeder slider return spring lost tension.

If it was a design problem there'd be a lot more chatter.

[Dazhi]

30 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

I agree.

This subject comes up on occasion and the usual solution is setting your sizing die with a case inserted all the way into the die fixes the problem.

(Which is exactly what the setup instructions specify as I recall.)

 

 

What you described here is exactly what the alignment tool does, in a more precise fashion. 

The issue is, even after using the alignment tool, primer punch alignment tool, my press still occasionally crushes cases.  Over the past 80k rounds I have loaded on the 650, all replaceable parts are new, some are 3 times new by now.   It's either an issue with how the station 1 + toolhead are designed, or it's the various parts operate in conjunction affecting each other.  For example, I can visually see while the shell plate moves up, the indexing vibration causes the case to slightly move outwards of the shell plate, but that's not always the cause for crushed cases.  Some other times in 120FPS slow mo I can see everything is aligned perfectly but still at the last nano sec the case mouth is crushed on the die.   That's why I am trying different dies.  It may be that 650 has to run with Dillon sizing die to be 100% without case crushing issue. 

 

Also, I hand sort head stamps and I only run 3 of them, WIN, RP and BLAZER.  I am sure some cases may be the cause but it is not for me. 

[ddc]

19 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

 

What you described here is exactly what the alignment tool does, in a more precise fashion. 

The issue is, even after using the alignment tool, primer punch alignment tool, my press still occasionally crushes cases.  Over the past 80k rounds I have loaded on the 650, all replaceable parts are new, some are 3 times new by now.   It's either an issue with how the station 1 + toolhead are designed, or it's the various parts operate in conjunction affecting each other.  For example, I can visually see while the shell plate moves up, the indexing vibration causes the case to slightly move outwards of the shell plate, but that's not always the cause for crushed cases.  Some other times in 120FPS slow mo I can see everything is aligned perfectly but still at the last nano sec the case mouth is crushed on the die.   That's why I am trying different dies.  It may be that 650 has to run with Dillon sizing die to be 100% without case crushing issue. 

 

Also, I hand sort head stamps and I only run 3 of them, WIN, RP and BLAZER.  I am sure some cases may be the cause but it is not for me. 

 

Ok. It sounds like you've had plenty of experience with reloading in gerneral, with the 650, and with this particular issue.

I am at a loss, at this point you are getting to be an expert on the problem, unfortunately!

Oh, well, you will be able to be a resource for those that come behind.

That is a good thing.

 

Dies: Supposedly the Dillon has a little more flare at the mouth. I can't verify that as I've always used Lee sizers.

 

I am really curious to find out what the solution ends up being. Please let us know.

 

 

[bozrdang]

The Dillon dies didn't solve the issue at all for me.

[KB007]

I was having the same issue, thinking it was the case ramp thing not going in far enough and pulling out a bunch of hair.  I finally tried the method described in the manual (tightening the lock ring with a case in the die) and haven't had the problem since, regardless of what die I use (including Dillon dies).

 

[RiggerJJ]

Why would you operate the press so hard that you crush cases in station 1 that are not seated all the way? On the rare occasion that it happens to me, I hesitate, hold the handle with my left hand, and push the offending case all the way into place with my right forefinger...simple, no, drama, no time loss...

[ddc]

On 4/4/2019 at 8:27 AM, RiggerJJ said:

Why would you operate the press so hard that you crush cases in station 1 that are not seated all the way? On the rare occasion that it happens to me, I hesitate, hold the handle with my left hand, and push the offending case all the way into place with my right forefinger...simple, no, drama, no time loss...

 

I got really good at doing that, lol... eventually I readjusted my seating die per the instructions and the problem went away...I'm glad I didn't have a more persistent issue such as being discussed here.

[Dazhi]

OK, I have tried LEE, Redding and Dillon sizing die.  It's not the die.  I also tried putting more slide glide under the feed ramp of the case.  No change.  Used alignment tool again.  Same result. I made sure I tightened the sizing die while the press is fully up with a case being sized fully in the die.  All these did nothing to help.  It is actually worse now.  

 

In slow mo video, it looks like sometimes the indexing of the shell plate when the shaft moves upwards is causing slight vibration, moving the case 1-2 mm outwards away from the center. 

 

I used to have those anti-vibration kit with plastic ball and a washer under the ejection wire.  I do not recall why I took them off.  Probably not indexing correctly.  I need to try them again. 

 

It's being bad enough that I have to stop every other stoke to manually push the case.   With case feeder and MBF I should be able to make 600-900 an hour easily but now barely 200-300 rounds

 

[Dazhi]

I am curious when there is a vibration, why the case moves away from instead of towards the center?  Does that imply the shell plate is not flat, or in fact a little bit canting outwards?

[Dazhi]

Here is the video of the issue.  First it's the 120FPS slow mo, followed by regular speed. 

 

The click, interestingly, should not even be there, according to a Dillon tech I just talked to over the phone.  He asked me to send in the video to show him there is a click when the main shaft goes up.  I believe that's the indexing action the index pawl returning?

 

 

[OptimiStick]

mine does the same thing.

[Miranda]

my 650 does not klunk or click or pop at that point in the stroke.

[Kilrb]

Mine has no klunk or pop, it did before I rebuilt and aligned everything. The person that I bought it from had it all messed up. So I got an education in getting it running smooth.