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bozrdang

XL 650 - cases sometimes catching on resizing die

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I had this problem the other day. As per the manual you don't want the case insert hard up against the case when the case is inserted into the shell plate once adjusted and locked in place. The tricky part was once I adjusted the case insert depth and got it right I noticed that when I tried to lock the adjusting rod in place it actually moved the rod down and backed the case insert out again.

By experimenting with over adjusting the case insert I found that when I locked the rod in place it would back the case insert out to the right spot.

From memory the press shouldn't be 'at rest' when adjusting this. It needs to be at full stroke which can be a bit tricky trying to hold the handle in place while also holding the rod adjustment in place with a hex key and locking it down with a spanner. I used my arm to hold the handle a full stroke leaving my hands free.

I hope this makes sense, good luck.

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What brand dies, and what brand cases? Do you sort by headstamp? Do you lube your 9mm first?

For me it's Lee dies, no head stamp sort, and yes lubed cases. Once they make it into the sizing die it's smooth sailing. And the press came as a 9mm set up originally. No rifle.

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Finally had a chance to call Dillon while they were open and they weren't any help. They said if it's only happening once in a while, it's not a machine problem and probably just a result of slightly different sized brass. They guy also said machines aren't perfect and it's to be expected to have a hang up every once in a while.

I checked the grease under locator 1 and it looks pretty light. I'll try adding some more and see if that helps.

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I would call them back. That's the second answer from Dillon I've seen lately that is weak to say the least. If Dillon presses hung up occasionally for everybody who used them then they would all run a different brand of press.

Something is out of adjustment or out of spec somewhere. It's not the brass or what color socks you wear or anything else unrelated to the press.

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Finally had a chance to call Dillon while they were open and they weren't any help. They said if it's only happening once in a while, it's not a machine problem and probably just a result of slightly different sized brass. They guy also said machines aren't perfect and it's to be expected to have a hang up every once in a while.

I checked the grease under locator 1 and it looks pretty light. I'll try adding some more and see if that helps.

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Sounds like someone at Dillon was late for their lunch break. That's not a typical response from them. I'd call back. Make sure you are by your machine when you do, as they will often want to have you check things or step you through processes. If you weren't at your machine when you called, it may have been the reason for the short answer.

Edited by Tom S.

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I was at my machine when I called. He asked if I tightened down the resizing die with a case inserted and the handle pulled all the way down. I told him I had done that a few times. He asked if the brass wobbled equally in all the locations on the shell plate and I said yes. Once I explained that my last session I had about 30-40 hang ups while reloading 650 he seemed dismissive. Like I was expecting perfection. He never had me try anything. He said machines have tolerances and maybe once in while a case is falling outside that tolerance. Whether be be it's size or its bouncing back out of the shell holder a bit.

I explained that I work in manufacturing and I am experienced with machines and their limitations. I told him that my concern was that even when I carefully seat a case in the shell holder with my finger it still deflects into the resizing die. That makes me wonder if I'm at the edge of its tolerance under the best conditions, leaving no wiggle room. He wouldn't answer if it is normally for all cases to be deflected upon entering the die.

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Out of curiosity, did you try removing the locating pins from the press that hold the tool head in place? I have read about this fix for some people. I don't know if it resolves an issue with a misaligned tool head or an issue of stacked close to out of tolerance parts.

Just throwing some other things out there. When this happens, do you notice any spilled powder around the press? Powder grains can easily escape 9mm brass, especially on large loads and migrate into the shell holder cutout. Have you tried marking the shell holder to see if it seems to be the same slot each time? If you are using mixed brass, is there any commonality between cases with the problem? Are you using a bearing under the shell plate screw head? If so try removing it. In either case, check the tightness of the the screw (don't forget to loosen the keeper screw on it first). I adjust mine so the plate hardly wants to move, then loosen it just enough to let it move freely. Too tight or too loose will cause feed problems.

The only other thing I can think to try would be a layer or two of thick tape (duct tape or gorilla tape) on the face of the plastic case insert guide.

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I still think the shell plate is too big or otherwise out of spec. See if you can borrow one or buy one new and if it cures the problem I'll bet you can get Dillon to reimburse you then.

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I have had this problem as well, I just opened up the mouth of my sizing dies, seems to have helped.

I could swear that station one on the tool head is being drilled and threaded closer to the hub than it should be...maybe they have a jig that has station one positioned wrong, because all the 650 heads I have do it.

jj

Edited by RiggerJJ

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I had a similar issue... for me, I added some weight and rigidity to my bench. That fixed that and my occasional primer flipping problem.

Failing that, try a die with a wider bevel.

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Mine does it in .40 Cal. I use Dillon dies and only Starline brass, and Speer in Nickel. I am ready to video it to see what happens. I have a feeling the case is sticking to the pusher and coming back out of the shell plate. It misses by half the case diameter.

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Bozrdang,

I have a similar issue with my machine. Sometimes it seems to 'act up' more than others and it feels as if a case was loaded upside down. I had an issue earlier on where I thought the cases weren't advancing properly into station 1, then I thought it was maybe a misalignment of a bent decapping pin (from the cases not loading fully). But now I am seeing it's similar to what you posted about - the cases not centered about the dies as they feed into them. I did notice this at the flare die earlier on but didn't think much of it at the time.

I wanted to take a closer look at my 650 before posting, so I did and here's what I found:

If I look closely at the cases as they move to the dies, at least 3 of them don't seem to line up perfectly. It is most noticeable at the de-priming/sizing die, but also noticeable at the powder/flare, and to a lesser degree the seat and crimp dies. If I advance the shell plate very slightly with my hand, I can get everything to line up just right. It's a very small amount, basically just a touch of pressure on the shell plate and just barely moving it.

I haven't dug in deep enough to look at the ratchet mechanism or whatever advances the shell plate. However, my guess is that its related to either the alignment of the shell plate and detent ball, or possibly the alignment of the tool head in the machine.

Note that I did loosen everything up and re-tighten the die lock nuts with all 5 stations loaded and all dies engaged with brass. There was a bit of tension on everything and it was difficult to get the tool head pins in or out. Since the shell plate should be free to rotate slightly, I wonder if this indicates more of an issue with the tool head?

The strange thing is that it can seem to load fine for awhile, then all of a sudden start misfeeding ~20% of the time.

My brass is semi-sorted, and the batch I've been loading is mostly GFL, GECO, and PMC.

I looked at playing with the pawl or whatever its called, but any adjustment there would be working against the positioning of the detent ball.

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I have had this problem as well, I just opened up the mouth of my sizing dies, seems to have helped.

I could swear that station one on the tool head is being drilled and threaded closer to the hub than it should be...maybe they have a jig that has station one positioned wrong, because all the 650 heads I have do it.

jj

It would be interesting to see if it happens on the aftermarket tool heads. Because of the tightness of the pins and cases when I'm adjusting my dies (see post above) I'm led to believe the issue is the tool head and not the shell plate or the base machine.

I just went to look at it again - if I remove the tool head pins and loosen the die lock nuts, I can get the tool head/dies to line up with the cases. With the shell plate still raised and the dies still loose, I can not put the pins back in the tool head. So maybe its a mis-alignment of the pin holes, hopefully in the tool head and not the machine. But with the pins out I can move the tool head to a position that stops the interference at the station 1 die, and everything else looks to bet lined up properly.

Also, if the shell plate were advanced slightly, it would be out of alignment with the case feed and the primers, so that is making me rule out the detent or anything else related to the shell plate.

Edited by StraightSh00ter

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Can you drill new holes for the locator pins ???

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I don't mean to take away from the OP's issue as this is his thread. It seems there could be a few different issues with similar symptoms.

If the shell plate appears to be lined up with the case feeder and the primer punch, but misaligned with the tool head, it may be an alignment issue with the platform of the machine (the part that the shell plate, primer system, etc. are all mounted on). If you Google "Dillon Alignment Tool" there are some related threads, and apparently a tool and a procedure for lining up the whole platform of the machine.

If the alignment of the shell plate looks off relative to the case feeder and primer punch, it's a different problem.

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I was having this issue and came to realize that the entire base of my press had worked loose from the ram over time. There are two allen head screws that hold it down that you can access if you removed the shell plate and they had backed out over time.

Between that and tightening down the shellplate more I didn't experience any issues in my last run, even though I'm using an EGW-U die.

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You guys have given me a wealth of info and suggestions. I don't usually have any time during the week to play with the machine but I will check out some of your guys' ideas this weekend. Thanks everyone.

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I have had this problem as well, I just opened up the mouth of my sizing dies, seems to have helped.

I could swear that station one on the tool head is being drilled and threaded closer to the hub than it should be...maybe they have a jig that has station one positioned wrong, because all the 650 heads I have do it.

jj

Actually I meant station one is FURTHER from the hub than it should be...

Gonna (maybe, if I have the time) try some 3rd party heads this weekend, I will report back if I remember...

jj

Edited by RiggerJJ

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Out of curiosity, did you try removing the locating pins from the press that hold the tool head in place? I have read about this fix for some people. I don't know if it resolves an issue with a misaligned tool head or an issue of stacked close to out of tolerance parts.

Just throwing some other things out there. When this happens, do you notice any spilled powder around the press? Powder grains can easily escape 9mm brass, especially on large loads and migrate into the shell holder cutout. Have you tried marking the shell holder to see if it seems to be the same slot each time? If you are using mixed brass, is there any commonality between cases with the problem? Are you using a bearing under the shell plate screw head? If so try removing it. In either case, check the tightness of the the screw (don't forget to loosen the keeper screw on it first). I adjust mine so the plate hardly wants to move, then loosen it just enough to let it move freely. Too tight or too loose will cause feed problems.

The only other thing I can think to try would be a layer or two of thick tape (duct tape or gorilla tape) on the face of the plastic case insert guide.

Tom S. Thanks for posting this. I've had this problem for years, and tried everything. I pulled out my pins and found that the tool head could go in just a little farther. I ran it without pins and it seemed to work much better. Just to make sure I put the pins back in and the problem returned immediately. I ended up running 500 rounds, and it ran smoother than it ever has. I was slamming the handle down as fast as I could with no problems. The pins are now in my spare parts box. It's like finding out you've been driving your car around in third gear. Thanks, thanks, thanks....

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Out of curiosity, did you try removing the locating pins from the press that hold the tool head in place? I have read about this fix for some people. I don't know if it resolves an issue with a misaligned tool head or an issue of stacked close to out of tolerance parts.

Just throwing some other things out there. When this happens, do you notice any spilled powder around the press? Powder grains can easily escape 9mm brass, especially on large loads and migrate into the shell holder cutout. Have you tried marking the shell holder to see if it seems to be the same slot each time? If you are using mixed brass, is there any commonality between cases with the problem? Are you using a bearing under the shell plate screw head? If so try removing it. In either case, check the tightness of the the screw (don't forget to loosen the keeper screw on it first). I adjust mine so the plate hardly wants to move, then loosen it just enough to let it move freely. Too tight or too loose will cause feed problems.

The only other thing I can think to try would be a layer or two of thick tape (duct tape or gorilla tape) on the face of the plastic case insert guide.

Tom S. Thanks for posting this. I've had this problem for years, and tried everything. I pulled out my pins and found that the tool head could go in just a little farther. I ran it without pins and it seemed to work much better. Just to make sure I put the pins back in and the problem returned immediately. I ended up running 500 rounds, and it ran smoother than it ever has. I was slamming the handle down as fast as I could with no problems. The pins are now in my spare parts box. It's like finding out you've been driving your car around in third gear. Thanks, thanks, thanks....

:cheers:

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If the machine gets hung up with the tool head pins in place but runs fine when they are out, there is a misalignment between the platform and the tool head. This is what the 'Alignment Tool' is for. Keeping the pins out and running the machine will likely be less consistent and wear parts faster, as you are relying on interference between the cases and dies to align the tool head every time you pull the handle.

We are expecting some pretty tight tolerances on the cartridges we make with these machines, so the machine needs to be tight. The only way to get all the parts of the machine to line up with tight tolerances is to design in adjustments. If the machine was designed to hold tight tolerances without adjustment, it would either have to have crazy tight tolerances itself (meaning crazy expense), or the reliability would be poor and we'd complain that alignment is bad.

The fact that Dillon has made the entire platform adjustable is awesome! It might take a little work to align the whole machine, but it allows us to perfectly align the shell plate with the case feed and primer ram, and then the whole lower half with the tool head.

Edited by StraightSh00ter

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weeeeee!

lots of causes.

for my solution I switched to a lee decapping/sizing die.

the RCBS die would baulk at about 1 in 20.

before I did that... I made sure the shellplate was clean and wobble free.

... uh, If you size a case that has been through the powder expander, it may need 'guidance.'

I had the same problem. Called Dillon their first question was what dies are you using. I was using the EGW U-die, switched to a Dillon die and problem went away.

Scott

Ya BUT. The Dillon die will never do what the EGW U does. I'll live with the problem before loading 9 Major with anything but the U die.

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If the machine gets hung up with the tool head pins in place but runs fine when they are out, there is a misalignment between the platform and the tool head. This is what the 'Alignment Tool' is for. Keeping the pins out and running the machine will likely be less consistent and wear parts faster, as you are relying on interference between the cases and dies to align the tool head every time you pull the handle.

We are expecting some pretty tight tolerances on the cartridges we make with these machines, so the machine needs to be tight. The only way to get all the parts of the machine to line up with tight tolerances is to design in adjustments. If the machine was designed to hold tight tolerances without adjustment, it would either have to have crazy tight tolerances itself (meaning crazy expense), or the reliability would be poor and we'd complain that alignment is bad.

The fact that Dillon has made the entire platform adjustable is awesome! It might take a little work to align the whole machine, but it allows us to perfectly align the shell plate with the case feed and primer ram, and then the whole lower half with the tool head.

Thank you. I will have to read up on the alignment tool. When I get the FTF into the decapping (U-die), I just reach through and touch the case and in it goes. I can get to 99.9% alignment IF I do everything very smootly, which also means "slowly"/

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weeeeee!

lots of causes.

for my solution I switched to a lee decapping/sizing die.

the RCBS die would baulk at about 1 in 20.

before I did that... I made sure the shellplate was clean and wobble free.

... uh, If you size a case that has been through the powder expander, it may need 'guidance.'

I had the same problem. Called Dillon their first question was what dies are you using. I was using the EGW U-die, switched to a Dillon die and problem went away.

Scott

Ya BUT. The Dillon die will never do what the EGW U does. I'll live with the problem before loading 9 Major with anything but the U die.

+1 LCS

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So you can pretty much do a pseudo alignment without the tool. I got the tool but didn't feel like digging down that far due to a crazy long day at work. You can take off the shell plate and primer assembly, and align the platform by lining up the powder funnel with the primer ram. It likely won't come out as perfect as with the tool and primer ram removed, but I personally was able to get it pretty darn close.

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