Zeroing questions

[Danny3nose]

I've never had a pistol with adjustable sights until I got a Shadow from Automatic Accuracy. I tried searching the forum for zero methods but didn't get much back.

At 20 yards I'd like to have a 6 o'clock hold so the sight doesn't obscure the target. My question:

How should I zero? Freehand or pistol rest? Should I aim at a Shoot N C target bullseye or should I just use a USPSA practice target that has a printed "A" and aim for that?

[aandabooks]

Freehand and Shoot N' See. The A zone is too general or just color a dot in the A zone and aim for that.

[Danny3nose]

I have some USPSA practice targets that have an A printed on them in the middle of the A zone. I could aim for that.

I could also color in a target dot, but how big should I make it?

[Danny3nose]

3x5" index card as a target?

[PatJones]

Shoot free hand. Shooting from a rest can change elevation.

[Danny3nose]

Shoot free hand. Shooting from a rest can change elevation.

What's an acceptable target to aim for at that distance and how big should it be?

[Sarge]

I use paper plates with a 1.5 inch black spot drawn in the middle with a sharpie. I put it out at 25 yards and shoot through a chrono so I can kill two birds with one stone.

I shoot from a rest initially for rough sight adjustment. Once I get it close then I repeat free hand since, as Pat said, the POI can change.

[RangerTrace]

I like to use a standard size post it note at 15 yards from a rest for my iron sighted guns. FWIW, I don't rest the gun on the bag, just my forearms.

[Hi-Power Jack]

This has come up before here at BE.

Try resting your gun and gun butt (mag) solidly on a rest - keep the gun

as steady as possible.

Aim at a small target (1-2") at 15, 20 or 25 yards, your preference.

Fire 3-5 shot groups, as long as the bullets actually group. If there is no

group (looks like a shotgun blast), then you have a problem with ammo,

your gun, loose sights or your trigger control.

If there is a group, move the sights until the group is approximately where

you want it.

Then fire a 10 - 15 shot group, discard the 2-3 "flyers" and see if the

center of the group is where you want it. Then make small adjustments

until you have it where you want it.

Then, fire another 10 shot group off-hand at the same distance. See if

there is any movement - there shouldn't be. But your group should be

larger. Don't change your sights with just a 3 or 5 shot group at this

point. If you don't have a group, but have a pattern, check ammo,

gun, loose sights, etc again.

You might want to retest it, if you can, with the sun in different postions.

That seems to change POI. If the sun is to your left or right, the group

will usually move a little.

When it's all set, see where the gun shoots at 5 yards and 50 yards,

just so you'll know, in case you ever need it.

BTW, if you sight it in at 50 yards, you'll be pretty close at all distances,

from my experience.

I've attached a 52 yard group from my TruBor 9mm from a solid rest -

magazine and barrel shroud solidly down on a solid bench rest. The

POI is similar to my offhand groups at that range and 20 yards, except

the groups are a LOT larger freehand.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Hi-Power Jack

[Danny3nose]

This has come up before here at BE.

Try resting your gun and gun butt (mag) solidly on a rest - keep the gun

as steady as possible.

Aim at a small target (1-2") at 15, 20 or 25 yards, your preference.

Fire 3-5 shot groups, as long as the bullets actually group. If there is no

group (looks like a shotgun blast), then you have a problem with ammo,

your gun, loose sights or your trigger control.

If there is a group, move the sights until the group is approximately where

you want it.

Then fire a 10 - 15 shot group, discard the 2-3 "flyers" and see if the

center of the group is where you want it. Then make small adjustments

until you have it where you want it.

Then, fire another 10 shot group off-hand at the same distance. See if

there is any movement - there shouldn't be. But your group should be

larger. Don't change your sights with just a 3 or 5 shot group at this

point. If you don't have a group, but have a pattern, check ammo,

gun, loose sights, etc again.

You might want to retest it, if you can, with the sun in different postions.

That seems to change POI. If the sun is to your left or right, the group

will usually move a little.

When it's all set, see where the gun shoots at 5 yards and 50 yards,

just so you'll know, in case you ever need it.

BTW, if you sight it in at 50 yards, you'll be pretty close at all distances,

from my experience.

I've attached a 52 yard group from my TruBor 9mm from a solid rest -

magazine and barrel shroud solidly down on a solid bench rest. The

POI is similar to my offhand groups at that range and 20 yards, except

the groups are a LOT larger freehand.

Yes!!!

This is what I needed. Much appreciated, Hi-Power Jack

Only problem is my square range only goes out to 60 feet...

Edited November 17, 2015 by Danny3nose

[Hi-Power Jack]

Nothing wrong with 60 feet.

But get those sights honed in, for your ammo and shooting

style, and then try them at 15 & 30 feet as well.

Next time you're outside, try them at 40 - 50 yards, and

see where they're hitting.

[Danny3nose]

Will this be sufficient?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Danny3nose

[Sarge]

I just use a rolled up beach towel for a rest

[waktasz]

Do you shoot a match from a rest? Then don't zero from a rest.

[GunBugBit]

I haven't found an appreciable difference between my 25-yard hits freehand and from a rest. The groups are tighter from a rest, of course.

I'm 3 feet tall so that's why my standing and from-a-rest hits are similar.

[9x45]

Don't use a rest, it's not for zero, it's for group size. So my oldest G17 will shoot to about 1.2" at 25 yards from a Ranson, and so? You don't shoot a match from a rest. My method is to first check new sights at 7 yards on a standard USPSA target, aiming at the A zone, no marks, dots, or cards.Then check it at 40 yards, same target A zone, not for group size, but group center. 1-2" high is fine, and everything closer, the difference will be even smaller. I don't use adjustable sights.

Edited November 17, 2015 by 9x45

[CHA-LEE]

One thing to consider when zeroing your gun is what the "Average" distance that most of the difficult shot are in matches. From my match experience locally and nationally the "Average" difficult shot distance is about 15 yards or simulated 15 yard shots where the target is closer but with the use of partial shots with No Shoots or Hard Cover to make it a harder shot. Sure, there are stages where the targets are further than 15 yards, but that is usually the exception verses the norm. You shouldn't be setting up your sights for the exception target distances.

Knowing that most of the difficult shots will be in the 15 yard range I setup my Point of Aim / Point of Impact to be dead nuts on at 15 yards. This will result in a slightly lower POI on closer targets and a slightly higher POI on further targets. But that vertical string from one distance to another is also dramatically affected by the bore axis verses sight height. For most iron sighted pistols the sight to bore offset isn't that much, so your shots will not string much vertically from one distance to another. But for an Open gun with a tall red dot will have dramatic vertical stringing at different distances because of the increased sight to bore offset.

I have seen plenty of Open shooters who Zero their guns at 25+ yards get punished with misses or no shoot hits when they have to engage tight shots up close because their POI is 4 - 5 inches low on the close targets.

[GunBugBit]

So there's zeroing, and then there's finding out what kinds of hits you can get on the clock at the 25 to 40 yard distances. Can you get A zone hits at those distances? Or at least somewhere on the target, consistently? And can you do it quickly (however you define "quickly" for yourself)?

[Sarge]

One thing to consider when zeroing your gun is what the "Average" distance that most of the difficult shot are in matches. From my match experience locally and nationally the "Average" difficult shot distance is about 15 yards or simulated 15 yard shots where the target is closer but with the use of partial shots with No Shoots or Hard Cover to make it a harder shot. Sure, there are stages where the targets are further than 15 yards, but that is usually the exception verses the norm. You shouldn't be setting up your sights for the exception target distances.

Knowing that most of the difficult shots will be in the 15 yard range I setup my Point of Aim / Point of Impact to be dead nuts on at 15 yards. This will result in a slightly lower POI on closer targets and a slightly higher POI on further targets. But that vertical string from one distance to another is also dramatically affected by the bore axis verses sight height. For most iron sighted pistols the sight to bore offset isn't that much, so your shots will not string much vertically from one distance to another. But for an Open gun with a tall red dot will have dramatic vertical stringing at different distances because of the increased sight to bore offset.

I have seen plenty of Open shooters who Zero their guns at 25+ yards get punished with misses or no shoot hits when they have to engage tight shots up close because their POI is 4 - 5 inches low on the close targets.

i don't think it's quite 4-5 inches low. 2-3 is much more like it on a real close target. I zero at 25 with a 90 and the difference is probably a little more than an inch. I like only worrying about adjusting in one direction such as holding an inch+ high on targets 3-4 feet away. When I first started shooting open with an upright mount I got talked into zeroing at typical ranges in matches. The gun still shot low on close targets AND it shot high on 35 yard plates! So I was aiming high up close and low far out. Too much geometry for me to fool around with on the clock. Going to a 90 and zeroing at 20-25 yards eliminated half of the problem

[ES13Raven]

Going to a 90 and zeroing at 20-25 yards eliminated half of the problem

90?

[CHA-LEE]

He is talking about a 90 degree "Sideways" C-More mount instead of the traditional straight up C-More Mount. The "sideways" C-More mount moves the dot lower towards the bore axis to an almost Iron Sight level. This reduced offset between the sight and bore also reduces the vertical drift of the point of impact at different distances.

[CHA-LEE]

One thing to consider when zeroing your gun is what the "Average" distance that most of the difficult shot are in matches. From my match experience locally and nationally the "Average" difficult shot distance is about 15 yards or simulated 15 yard shots where the target is closer but with the use of partial shots with No Shoots or Hard Cover to make it a harder shot. Sure, there are stages where the targets are further than 15 yards, but that is usually the exception verses the norm. You shouldn't be setting up your sights for the exception target distances.

Knowing that most of the difficult shots will be in the 15 yard range I setup my Point of Aim / Point of Impact to be dead nuts on at 15 yards. This will result in a slightly lower POI on closer targets and a slightly higher POI on further targets. But that vertical string from one distance to another is also dramatically affected by the bore axis verses sight height. For most iron sighted pistols the sight to bore offset isn't that much, so your shots will not string much vertically from one distance to another. But for an Open gun with a tall red dot will have dramatic vertical stringing at different distances because of the increased sight to bore offset.

I have seen plenty of Open shooters who Zero their guns at 25+ yards get punished with misses or no shoot hits when they have to engage tight shots up close because their POI is 4 - 5 inches low on the close targets.

i don't think it's quite 4-5 inches low. 2-3 is much more like it on a real close target. I zero at 25 with a 90 and the difference is probably a little more than an inch. I like only worrying about adjusting in one direction such as holding an inch+ high on targets 3-4 feet away. When I first started shooting open with an upright mount I got talked into zeroing at typical ranges in matches. The gun still shot low on close targets AND it shot high on 35 yard plates! So I was aiming high up close and low far out. Too much geometry for me to fool around with on the clock. Going to a 90 and zeroing at 20-25 yards eliminated half of the problem

Or zero it at 15 and be a little high at 25 and a little low at 5 then not even have to worry about the offset difference for any distance. At that point there will be more sight displacement by slapping the trigger too hard so the little bit its off close or far really does not make a difference.

On my Open gun setup I am using a 90 degree scope mount. Much to my surprise the bullet weight seemed to make a bigger difference in the close to far POI than anything. In my testing 124gr bullets had at least twice the vertical drift as 115gr bullets. When I sight in the 115's to be dead on at 15 yards. They are about an inch low at 5 yards and 2 inches high at 25 yards. To me that is well within the bounds of how much I can influence the POI by simply mashing the trigger while shooting aggressively. It also doesn't hurt to have some "trigger mashing insurance" for the further shots.

Edited November 18, 2015 by CHA-LEE

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I use a black paster at 18 yards for my zero. I make sure I know where it hits at 3-50 yards for those small head shots and steel plates. Thanks, Eric

[9x45]

This is more like what I get for iron sights with a 40 yard zero on my G17 125 grs going about 1,180 fps.

yards rise/drop inches

0 -.22

10 .26

20 +.38

30 +.46

40 0.0

50 -.7

60 -1.7

70 -3.0

from http://www.handloads.org/calc/index.html

Edited November 18, 2015 by 9x45