"Illegal Stage"

[JAFO]

We obscure targets as the shooter approaches the 180 all the time through the use of ports, walls, barrels, etc until they are well past a logical engagement point. But are you talking about having to obscure them from every possible position in the shooting area, even if it means the shooter would be facing 45 degrees or more uprange beyond the 180?

[CHA-LEE]

If the Official NROI interpretation of rule 2.1.4 is that targets should NEVER be visible beyond the 180 then there should have been at least 1 stage per Major match thrown out in all of the major matches I attended in 2015 including the Limited Nationals. Not to mention the 50+ club matches I have attended. I am yet to see a any level match throw out a stage because targets were simply VISIBLE beyond the 180.

When I read rule 2.1.4 its intent is to make sure that targets are not placed beyond the 180 and that is the ONLY place they can be engaged, which forces the shooter to break the 180 to engage it. I have yet to see this actually happen as well since common sense usually kicks in when the stage designers are setting up the stage and realize that the target is beyond the 180 in the only place it can be engaged.

The "As and When visible" portion of the rule is what gets everyone's nickers in a twist because it can be interpenetrated in different ways. My interpenetration of "As and when visible" means the first time the target can be seen. If a target is first seen and is with the 180, its good to go. If you choose to run past a target, look up range to find it AGAIN then point your gun at it breaking the 180, then you will be rewarded for your stupidity with a DQ. This is a big kid game with big kid rules. We can't put a seat belt, airbag, or warning label on everything. Shooters need to take 100% responsibility in keeping their guns pointed down range at all times. If you can't keep from pointing your gun up range then its time to find a different shooting sport to participate in.

To clear this rule up I think NROI should define what "As and when visible" really means. Is this when you first see the target within the COF? Is the "visibility" restricted to the confines of the 180? Is this being able to see a target anywhere within the COF beyond the 180?

[ctay]

Agree.

I do try to block targets and give a help to shooters when possible - no one wants someone to break the 180. However, there are stage designs that are fun and fair but don't really have a way to completely block off the target from beyond 180. To call those stages illegal I think is a real stretch of the rule book.

Moreover, what if I miss something when building the stage and don't block a target far off from a place that I never thought to engage it? "Gaming" of stages takes place all the time proving that a stage designer is hard pressed to think of everything. As long as those holes are taken advantage of safely - great! But interpreting this rule so extremely means that hole I didn't see gets the stage thrown out as an illegal stage. That can have pretty dramatic consequences for the sport.

[bikerburgess]

I think 2.1.4 was written with one thing in mind but as it was written covers 2 separate but related issues. I think the original idea was to avoid issues like bullets going over the berm due to a high target, off the side of a range without side berms, etc.. This really comes into to play with indoor ranges, you cant tell the competitors dot shoot the walls and then place targets where shooting them when visible could result in them hitting the wall. The other related issue is the 180 while shooting a target at 185 deg may or may not in actuality place anyone in danger, we have decided that anything beyond it is a safety violation, I think this unintended? coverage within its wording is a good thing, and something I do my best to comply with at every level of match I am involved with.

[d_striker]

If the Official NROI interpretation of rule 2.1.4 is that targets should NEVER be visible beyond the 180 then there should have been at least 1 stage per Major match thrown out in all of the major matches I attended in 2015 including the Limited Nationals. Not to mention the 50+ club matches I have attended. I am yet to see a any level match throw out a stage because targets were simply VISIBLE beyond the 180.

When I read rule 2.1.4 its intent is to make sure that targets are not placed beyond the 180 and that is the ONLY place they can be engaged, which forces the shooter to break the 180 to engage it. I have yet to see this actually happen as well since common sense usually kicks in when the stage designers are setting up the stage and realize that the target is beyond the 180 in the only place it can be engaged.

The "As and When visible" portion of the rule is what gets everyone's nickers in a twist because it can be interpenetrated in different ways. My interpenetration of "As and when visible" means the first time the target can be seen. If a target is first seen and is with the 180, its good to go. If you choose to run past a target, look up range to find it AGAIN then point your gun at it breaking the 180, then you will be rewarded for your stupidity with a DQ. This is a big kid game with big kid rules. We can't put a seat belt, airbag, or warning label on everything. Shooters need to take 100% responsibility in keeping their guns pointed down range at all times. If you can't keep from pointing your gun up range then its time to find a different shooting sport to participate in.

To clear this rule up I think NROI should define what "As and when visible" really means. Is this when you first see the target within the COF? Is the "visibility" restricted to the confines of the 180? Is this being able to see a target anywhere within the COF beyond the 180?

What's your take on the matter when shooting a stage something like Stage 4 yesterday? Where you start downrange and move uprange. That one target on the right side of the COF, left of the barrel was first visible as the shooter moved uprange and was begging to be shot.

Edited November 9, 2015 by d_striker

[bikerburgess]

Agree.

I do try to block targets and give a help to shooters when possible - no one wants someone to break the 180. However, there are stage designs that are fun and fair but don't really have a way to completely block off the target from beyond 180. To call those stages illegal I think is a real stretch of the rule book.

Moreover, what if I miss something when building the stage and don't block a target far off from a place that I never thought to engage it? "Gaming" of stages takes place all the time proving that a stage designer is hard pressed to think of everything. As long as those holes are taken advantage of safely - great! But interpreting this rule so extremely means that hole I didn't see gets the stage thrown out as an illegal stage. That can have pretty dramatic consequences for the sport.

First, I cant think of a stage design where with some amount of effort one could not block every target from beyond the 180

As for missing a target view, it will and does happen. but 11.1.2 says shooters must challenge the stage prior to shooting it and unless the stage really really needs to be tossed the competitors are unlikely to do that. so it is up to the MD and RM to do their best to comply with the rules as they build and vet the stages.

[ctay]

First, I cant think of a stage design where with some amount of effort one could not block every target from beyond the 180

As for missing a target view, it will and does happen. but 11.1.2 says shooters must challenge the stage prior to shooting it and unless the stage really really needs to be tossed the competitors are unlikely to do that. so it is up to the MD and RM to do their best to comply with the rules as they build and vet the stages.

If you have a stage where you advance forward on targets in a line you are going to have a very difficult time blocking them all off. I agree, nothing is impossible, just improbable.

If the targets are not parallel with the 180 you are very likely going to have them visible from some angle past 180 (unless EVERY target is behind a wall). Remember, No shoots are not walls - you can shoot over and under them.

[CHA-LEE]

If the Official NROI interpretation of rule 2.1.4 is that targets should NEVER be visible beyond the 180 then there should have been at least 1 stage per Major match thrown out in all of the major matches I attended in 2015 including the Limited Nationals. Not to mention the 50+ club matches I have attended. I am yet to see a any level match throw out a stage because targets were simply VISIBLE beyond the 180.

When I read rule 2.1.4 its intent is to make sure that targets are not placed beyond the 180 and that is the ONLY place they can be engaged, which forces the shooter to break the 180 to engage it. I have yet to see this actually happen as well since common sense usually kicks in when the stage designers are setting up the stage and realize that the target is beyond the 180 in the only place it can be engaged.

The "As and When visible" portion of the rule is what gets everyone's nickers in a twist because it can be interpenetrated in different ways. My interpenetration of "As and when visible" means the first time the target can be seen. If a target is first seen and is with the 180, its good to go. If you choose to run past a target, look up range to find it AGAIN then point your gun at it breaking the 180, then you will be rewarded for your stupidity with a DQ. This is a big kid game with big kid rules. We can't put a seat belt, airbag, or warning label on everything. Shooters need to take 100% responsibility in keeping their guns pointed down range at all times. If you can't keep from pointing your gun up range then its time to find a different shooting sport to participate in.

To clear this rule up I think NROI should define what "As and when visible" really means. Is this when you first see the target within the COF? Is the "visibility" restricted to the confines of the 180? Is this being able to see a target anywhere within the COF beyond the 180?

What's your take on the matter when shooting a stage something like Stage 4 yesterday? Where you start downrange and move uprange. That one target on the right side of the COF, left of the barrel was first visible as the shooter moved uprange and was begging to be shot.

The stage you point out did allow you to see/engage the right side target up range of the 180 as you were retreating within the shooting area. To me, that was a poor stage design as another set of barrels could have been placed in front of the target so it couldn't be seen until it was within the the 180. But this is also a perfect example of a big kid game using big kid rules. Every shooter is tasked with keeping their gun pointed down range at all times and deciding when and where to engage that target at a safe angle is part of the game. I always say that every stage provides the opportunity to make the wrong decision. That IS part of the game we play.

If we dumb it down to a point where everything is spoon fed to the competitors to ensure they make the "Correct" decisions then its really no longer a "Freestyle" game is it?

Edited November 9, 2015 by CHA-LEE

[pjb45]

CHA-LEE,

Unfortunately, I have not been to Nationals lately. But having been at 10 or so, I don't remember this as being an issue but that is probably more towards my memory lapse than anything else. I don't remember this being an issue at PASA/Tulsa/Vegas but then again....

I am somewhat ok with your modification but my discussion would be around "first..' Some clubs and major matches allow for targets to be shot from more than one location. I can think of the four memory stages at the Desert Classic one year as an example. Also, having shot in WA, there seems to be a preference to have at least one memory stage per match at one local club. So IMO this would preclude the 'first' addition to your recommendation.

To clear this rule up I think NROI should define what "As and when visible" really means. Is this when you first see the target within the COF? Is the "visibility" restricted to the confines of the 180? Is this being able to see a target anywhere within the COF beyond the 180?

I would support this recommendation and perhaps the CRO class is design to help address this concern.

Just a observation, I have not recommended 'spoon fed' or dumbing down, nor have I seen that recommended by anyone else who tries to ensure the rule book does not contradict itself in the design of a stage. I think what I have seen/heard is the role of the CRO is to help in this regard. The Match Director is the final decision maker.

[thermobollocks]

The existing rulebook provides ample guidance, and I don't see the utility into reading into the "as and when visible" particularly deeply. The tenets of stage design seem more to address the idea that while course designers can arrange targets in certain ways, competitors must always be able to safely "solve the problem" as they see fit.

In general, if a club is doing things right, there are TONS of targets that can safely be engaged from more than one view.

[bikerburgess]

First, I cant think of a stage design where with some amount of effort one could not block every target from beyond the 180

As for missing a target view, it will and does happen. but 11.1.2 says shooters must challenge the stage prior to shooting it and unless the stage really really needs to be tossed the competitors are unlikely to do that. so it is up to the MD and RM to do their best to comply with the rules as they build and vet the stages.

If you have a stage where you advance forward on targets in a line you are going to have a very difficult time blocking them all off. I agree, nothing is impossible, just improbable.

If the targets are not parallel with the 180 you are very likely going to have them visible from some angle past 180 (unless EVERY target is behind a wall). Remember, No shoots are not walls - you can shoot over and under them.

A simple solution to that problem is a small piece of corrugated plastic or cardboard about 18" wide and 3-4' tall stapled to another set of target sticks, instant small easily portable wall. You could also just stapled it to the side of the target sticks on the target that needs hidden.

[CHA-LEE]

And when the wind comes up mid match and takes all of your newly created "sails" into the next county you will be forced to throw the stage out. WIN!!!

Could every club waste a bunch of time and money making sure every target in the stage can't be seen beyond the 180? Sure. Unfortunately most clubs don't have the man power or equipment to do it. At some point common sense needs to be balanced with unrealistic expectations. Especially when all of the extra work is required for the few donkeys who can't seem to understand that their muzzle needs to be pointed down range at all times. I would venture to say it's a lot easier to ban the unsafe shooters from the matches verses wasting a bunch of effort to monkey proof the stages for them.

[9x45]

. Especially when all of the extra work is required for the few donkeys who can't seem to understand that their muzzle needs to be pointed down range at all times. I would venture to say it's a lot easier to ban the unsafe shooters from the matches verses wasting a bunch of effort to monkey proof the stages for them.

Hell Yea! Oh, don't worry about my finger on the trigger, it's not a real gun.....

[MarkCO]

While I am sure that this was taught by the RMI, it is a significant change in interpretation. It also follows a path that the leaders of USPSA have gotten on that many members do not agree with. Frankly, based on the common use of the english language, several recent rulings would not stand up to scrutiny in a legal setting. Biding my time until the new president comes on board and then we will see what path USPSA takes.

[JAFO]

| _______________

| |

| |

| |

| |.....\

| |

| |.....\

| |

| |.....\

| |

| |.....\

| |

[A]

Here's a hypothetical target array, but I've seen one like it on more than one occasion. Start position is in Box A, there are four targets to the right of the shooting lane, and the stage continues forward of the top fault line shown.

You could obscure every target beyond the 180 with no-shoots or barrels, but most often I see them left open (sometimes with 180 sticks on the ground for RO reference). I've seen shooters have to stop and back up because they were going too fast to make up a shot on hardcover or a covering no-shoot while shooting on the move, but rarely has someone spun around to break the 180. By some of the interpretations I'm reading, this array would not be ill-advised or poor design, but actually illegal?

Edited November 10, 2015 by JAFO

[ctay]

| _______________

| |

| |

| |

| |.....\

| |

| |.....\

| |

| |.....\

| |

| |.....\

| |

[A]

Here's a hypothetical target array, but I've seen one like it on more than one occasion. Start position is in Box A, there are four targets to the right of the shooting lane, and the stage continues forward of the top fault line shown.

You could obscure every target beyond the 180 with no-shoots or barrels, but most often I see them left open (sometimes with 180 sticks on the ground for RO reference). I've seen shooters have to stop and back up because they were going too fast to make up a shot on hardcover or a covering no-shoot while shooting on the move, but rarely has someone spun around to break the 180. By some of the interpretations I'm reading, this array would not be ill-advised or poor design, but actually illegal?

That is pretty similar to the stage that brought this discussion up.

I would also point out that it isn't just "lazyness" that prevents putting up barrels or walls - sometimes that doesn't work with the stage. If you have targets closer together you really can't block the 180 without blocking the other targets before the 180 - the angles conflict.

[OUshooter]

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

First of all there is no "180 rule". I know I know that's what everyone calls it but that isn't in the rule book. Besides 10.5.2 takes care of it.

If anyone would like to argue a counterpoint using "freestyle" as a basis have fun but it's a moot point. The fact this thread went more than 1 page is somewhat astonishing.

[peterthefish]

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

First of all there is no "180 rule". I know I know that's what everyone calls it but that isn't in the rule book. Besides 10.5.2 takes care of it.

If anyone would like to argue a counterpoint using "freestyle" as a basis have fun but it's a moot point. The fact this thread went more than 1 page is somewhat astonishing.

Quoting 10.5.2, stating that there is no 180 rule, and then acknowledging that everyone refers to 10.5.2 as the 180 rule is the definition of pedantic.

[gino_aki]

I think that people referring to the "180" probably involves them adding together the two arcs that comprise 90 degrees left and right of the median intercept of the backstop. What surprises me is that people are so concerned with the two extremes on either side of the 90 degree intercept yet seemingly unconcerned with the whole 180 degrees of arc you DO have within which to place your targets. I've done tons of stages over the years I've been shooting this game where none of the targets ever left a 90 degree (45 degrees left and right of the median intercept) angle of arc regarding target placement and have yet to hear any of my stages called boring or unchallenging. I do find that moving fault lines back and away from where your walls are placed can do much to close down angles of engagement to very safe parameters while still maintaining a lot of freedom as far as "when and where visible." It does put more pressure on R.O.'s to catch foot faults and there is a much greater probability of prop damage as shooters will shoot up the ends of your walls and the edges of your ports, As some have said, this is a "big boy" (and girl) sport, and I agree, but I think being a big boy or girl course designer means putting in the extra effort as you're putting it down in Sketch-Up or Powerpoint and during set-up to make a stage fun and challenging as well as keeping it safe. This may mean some of your wilder ideas have to be thrown out. That's ok. Safe doesn't have to mean boring, it's just up to you to design it so it isn't.

[jnkill]

On 11/7/2015 at 5:33 PM, open17 said:

and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis

by your interpretation that means if i'm shooting single stack i have to do a standing reload if i can see 5 targets from my 1st position even though i can see it at the next position, i dont think so 

[perttime]

12 hours ago, jnkill said:

by your interpretation that means if i'm shooting single stack i have to do a standing reload if i can see 5 targets from my 1st position even though i can see it at the next position, i dont think so 

 

You are allowed to shoot them as soon as you see them. If there's another position where you can also see them, you can continue there. Often, there's more than one place where you can engage a particular target.

 

The IPSC wording for 2.1.4:

"2.1.4 Target Locations – When a course is constructed to include target locations other than immediately downrange, organizers and officials must protect or restrict surrounding areas to which competitors, officials or spectators have access. Each competitor must be permitted to solve the competitive problem in his own way and must not be hindered by being forced to act in any manner which might cause unsafe action. Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them as presented will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire."

 

Also, there's rules for how many hits a stage can REQUIRE from a single view. for IPSC that is 9, I recall USPSA has 8. Being able to hit more from a single view is OK - if there's alternatives where you can get away with the restricted number.

[nuidad]

Let's also not forget to ensure that steel is not available from less than 23 feet.  Since most shooters don't measure distances to targets, it is essential that that situation is not present in a COF.  I witnessed a very unfortunate instance where a father, accompanying his young son at his first match, was DQ'd on the first stage for shooting a popper that was visible from an unsafe distance. 

[perttime]

^^ Ouch. That is seriously flawed stage design.

[bret]

21 hours ago, nuidad said:

Let's also not forget to ensure that steel is not available from less than 23 feet.  Since most shooters don't measure distances to targets, it is essential that that situation is not present in a COF.  I witnessed a very unfortunate instance where a father, accompanying his young son at his first match, was DQ'd on the first stage for shooting a popper that was visible from an unsafe distance. 

that was a bad stage design, the MD, RM and RO's in charge of the stage were at fault.

I have noticed steel too close, mentioned it to the RM and told it didn't matter, I did not shoot it from the forward fault line like everyone else did.