Locked elbows?

[motosapiens]

Tired eyes are my deciding factor on how far the front sight is. This has my elbows locked.

they make glasses for that. just sayin.

[Nimitz]

I don't know who this guy is , but his elbows seem to have a slight bend to them

hmmm .... cool sponsor jersey , POV camera ... I'd listen to him ....

[BeerBaron]

A lot of good shooters (chalee on this board for one) are proponents of locking out elbows, arms fully extended. I think like many shooting techniques it works for some (chalee, sevigny, vogel and others) but not all (grauffel, hobdell, michel, stoeger etc).

I have tried both ways but for 2 reasons I don't full extend/lock elbows. For one I have a plate in my strong side shoulder and 9 bolts. makes it hard to fully extend. 2 I found better results with a very slight bend to my elbows. My wrists (particularly my weak hand) is rotated forward/down and locked thumb forward.

I would suggest if you have great hand strength and upper body strength then fully extended/locked out arms may work well for you. I do tend to see guys using that technique getting injuries. I don't exactly have any stats on it, so it's more just an observation of a few shooters I know who shoot that way and subsequently had shoulder or elbow issues.

I think weak hand wrist being locked out helps control the muzzle flip of the gun.

Like most things you need to try it and see if it works for you. Then once you've settled on a technique don't be afraid to revisit the other technique again in a few years time. Stuff that didn't work for you as a new shooter in your first few matches may work well for you later on as a more advanced shooter.

[johnbu]

Should I be locking out my elbows after the draw and putting the gun on target? I have only shot 2 uspsa matches and I saw several guys locking out their arms, but several more were not what say the experts?

Most pros seem to like to lock them but they are in much better physical condition than the average person. Here are some facts:

1) If you lock your elbows, it puts all the load on your shoulders. If they can handle it, that may not be a problem.

2) If the elbows are allowed to flex, they act like shock absorbers for recoil. Locked out, your shoulder (rotator cuff) muscles have to handle the load of lifting the gun and stopping recoil lift.

If lockout works for you, no problem. Some of us older guys with chronic tendonitis can't do it.

I've beeb dry firing a lot recently and my shoulders are now crap. Thanks for the advice! Will now try to bring the gun back some. Getting old sucks.

[arkadi]

Also to consider are strong/weak one-hand-only stages. Locked elbows doesn't work well for that.

Occasionally, larger distances, like 25+ meters (subjectively) benefit from the locked elbows in my case.

[QuickMick]

Also to consider are strong/weak one-hand-only stages. Locked elbows doesn't work well for that.

Occasionally, larger distances, like 25+ meters (subjectively) benefit from the locked elbows in my case.

True! So for me it depends on the task: close, fast shots on arrays up to 10m with elbows not locked, anything beyond that distance locked. Personally I combine that with the focus type I use (target/not locked, sight/locked)

[Jake Di Vita]

Most pros seem to like to lock them but they are in much better physical condition than the average person. Here are some facts:

1) If you lock your elbows, it puts all the load on your shoulders. If they can handle it, that may not be a problem.

2) If the elbows are allowed to flex, they act like shock absorbers for recoil. Locked out, your shoulder (rotator cuff) muscles have to handle the load of lifting the gun and stopping recoil lift.

If lockout works for you, no problem. Some of us older guys with chronic tendonitis can't do it.

Some facts huh? Show me these "pros" that lock their elbows, because I've shot with a large amount of them and have never seen it. Some pictures/video may give the appearance of locked elbows from the camera's perspective, but I assure you they are almost always slightly bent.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, you do not want the recoil to travel through locked arms into your shoulders, you ideally want the recoil to travel through tensed musculature into the ground. I'd like to look at video of you guys who lock your arms, because I bet your shoulders are getting pushed all over the place. You said bent arms act like shock absorbers....yes, exactly...that is a good thing though, not a bad thing. You are never going to stop or eliminate recoil, you can only manage it.

True! So for me it depends on the task: close, fast shots on arrays up to 10m with elbows not locked, anything beyond that distance locked. Personally I combine that with the focus type I use (target/not locked, sight/locked)

It seems like a terrible idea to have two different gross motor patterns for shooting a pistol. The simpler way is often the better way, you'll do yourself a favor in the long run by sticking with one.

I actually can't think of a single dynamic athletic movement that benefits from locking joints.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Jake Di Vita

[QuickMick]

Most pros seem to like to lock them but they are in much better physical condition than the average person. Here are some facts:

1) If you lock your elbows, it puts all the load on your shoulders. If they can handle it, that may not be a problem.

2) If the elbows are allowed to flex, they act like shock absorbers for recoil. Locked out, your shoulder (rotator cuff) muscles have to handle the load of lifting the gun and stopping recoil lift.

If lockout works for you, no problem. Some of us older guys with chronic tendonitis can't do it.

Some facts huh? Show me these "pros" that lock their elbows, because I've shot with a large amount of them and have never seen it. Some pictures/video may give the appearance of locked elbows from the camera's perspective, but I assure you they are almost always slightly bent.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, you do not want the recoil to travel through locked arms into your shoulders, you ideally want the recoil to travel through tensed musculature into the ground. I'd like to look at video of you guys who lock your arms, because I bet your shoulders are getting pushed all over the place. You said bent arms act like shock absorbers....yes, exactly...that is a good thing though, not a bad thing. You are never going to stop or eliminate recoil, you can only manage it.

True! So for me it depends on the task: close, fast shots on arrays up to 10m with elbows not locked, anything beyond that distance locked. Personally I combine that with the focus type I use (target/not locked, sight/locked)

It seems like a terrible idea to have two different gross motor patterns for shooting a pistol. The simpler way is often the better way, you'll do yourself a favor in the long run by sticking with one.

I actually can't think of a single dynamic athletic movement that benefits from locking joints.

The larger the distance between your eye and front sight the better for precision. it's just knowing in a stage where this situations occur and which focus type I use leads me to locken/unlocked, something you can easily train during dry fire. Unlocked elbows speeds up follow-up shots, something I'm (primarily) not interested in for distance above 15, 20m. The more important thing seems that you don't lift your shoulders. Give it a try.

[Jake Di Vita]

The larger the distance between your eye and front sight the better for precision. it's just knowing in a stage where this situations occur and which focus type I use leads me to locken/unlocked, something you can easily train during dry fire. Unlocked elbows speeds up follow-up shots, something I'm (primarily) not interested in for distance above 15, 20m. The more important thing seems that you don't lift your shoulders. Give it a try.

Sure that's true in theory, but I don't think the 2 or 3 extra inches I get by locking my elbows is going to give me any measurable difference in potential accuracy with the type of shooting we do.

I guess I just don't understand your point of view. I want fast follow up shots at 15 and 20 meters and I'm no more accurate with locked elbows than bent. In fact, locked elbows make my follow-up shots slower and less accurate because the recoil starts pushing my upper body around. Please don't think I've never tried it.

[kneelingatlas]

I love the relative anonymity of the internet! There's no easy way to tell if the guy you're schooling on technique is a struggling B class shooter or a GM

Mick, here's a sample of Jake's shooting:

Edited December 15, 2015 by kneelingatlas

[kneelingatlas]

Nice shooting by the way Jake!

[rowdyb]

My elbows are not locked but all my muscles from hands through shoulders and back are taut. (And if all we're doing is banging steel I can do a 4 sec el pres like that)

[Warkitz]

Strong grip relaxed elbow works for me.

[kk4364]

Holy fast! Nice shooting Jake!

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[CZinZA]

Way to make the rest of us feel inadequate. Thanks for posting that, atlas. Now i think I'm going to take up lawn bowls

Sent by Jedi mind control

[TDA]

I'd be happy if I could just see fast enough to watch the video, let alone shoot that fast!

Great shooting, Jake!

[Daft]

I heard of Japanese shooters who trained on airsoft (cant use real pistols there) and held the pistol up close, elbows really bent. They practiced as lot, came to US match and did really well.

Not sure if its true or not.

[Jake Di Vita]

Thanks guys. The real talent in that video is running the timer, Moneypenny is also in the background somewhere.

I heard of Japanese shooters who trained on airsoft (cant use real pistols there) and held the pistol up close, elbows really bent. They practiced as lot, came to US match and did really well.

Not sure if its true or not.

Tatsuya Sakai won in the early 2000's I think using the method you are speaking of. That is the opposite end of the not ideal spectrum in my opinion. He was clearly able to make it work for steel challenge that year, but I think the high degree of bend in his elbows would have severely hampered his ability to shoot multiple shots on a single target.

I struggle with too much bend in my elbows as well.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Jake Di Vita

[BritinUSA]

Some facts huh? Show me these "pros" that lock their elbows, because I've shot with a large amount of them and have never seen it. Some pictures/video may give the appearance of locked elbows from the camera's perspective, but I assure you they are almost always slightly bent.

I've taken thousands of photos and videos of the top competitors over the past few years and I don't recall seeing anyone lock their elbows either.

The more bend in my elbows the more control I seem to have over the gun (especially transitions and reloads) but the gun moves more in recoil so my splits are slower.

[K31Scout]

I have a big tear in my left rotator cuff (18 months ago) and chose not to have surgery. Locked elbows really put an ache in that shoulder quickly. Just a slight bend in the elbows is comfortable for as long as I want to shoot.

[Flash74]

I know I am late to the discussion, but don't ever lock your joint if you dont have to. There is absolutely no benefit to doing so. If you've locked your joint then it is hyperextended and at a weak point. You take the joint to a point if it goes any farther then damage will occur. If locking elbows makes sense, then locking knees when shooting should also make sense. By all means please shoot with elbows locked and knees locked. I would love to see the video. If you agree that shooting with bent knees makes sense, then wouldn't shooting with bent elbows make sense. Your body has built in shock absorbers with a pretty good suspension system. Use it.

[kneelingatlas]

I shoot USPSA with a slight bend in my elbows, but I don't know if I'd say there's no application for locked joints, I used to shoot Olympic pistol with both elbows and knees locked

[Jcalero]

My guess is that it is condemned by many shooters because it is subjective to finger length and is not a "universal" grip technique. Those who don't do it claim that the finger on the trigger guard "steers" the gun and can cause the muzzle to wander upon recoil. That's probably true, because their finger is just too short to wrap around the trigger guard and they end up pushing the guard to the side rather than pulling straight back.

If your finger is long enough to wrap around the guard and pull straight back it probably works pretty well judging from some of the shooters that have employed the technique!

I have large hands and long fingers and after reading all of the "don't ever do that" comments I immediately went to the range and tried it with my Glock 27 and wondered why I hadn't tried that before!

Good morning to all, I tend to use both style grips depending on what I am shooting. For example, for my G19, I find using the index on the guard works well for me. It is mnore of a preference issue and not a brand issue as I shoot my G34 without the finger on the guard. If I would have to guess, it is the smaller "real Estate" grip on the 19 that makes me prefer this.

Come to think about it, it is the only gun that I shoot with the index finger on the guard and can achieve consistent accurate results.

[kk4364]

Good loint jcalero. And as far as locking elbows last range trip I tried and I was very shakey! So thats a big no for me.

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[turbopower18]

robport thanks for posting that video now its time to practice!!!