Sarge Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I guess I am blessed that the MD's for me locally are all squared away. Same here all of us local MD's in my part of the world are top notch, same as the RO's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngeyes Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The only places you holster or unholster are: at your vehicle in the parking lot. I'm assuming this is not a USPSA match then? Handling a gun at your car at a USPSA match will get you sent home early. You've got parking lot nazis at your USPSA-sanctioned matches? Interesting. I will admit I have not read every letter of the USPSA rules and am ignorant what the rule book says about handling your gun in/at your car in the range's parking lot. But I'll look now. Not finding it. In fact, section 2.5.1 provides for the possibility of competitors arriving at a USPSA match with a loaded firearm on them. Are we talking about an area where local gun laws are in play, not USPSA rules? My practice is to arrive with an unloaded firearm in my range bag. When I decide it's time to holster my gun, I go to one of the safe areas and put the unloaded gun (hammer down, no magazine in, of course) in my holster. I remain in that state until the match is over or unless I'm shooting a stage. Section 5.2 appears to explicitly allow for this practice. I don't see in the USPSA rulebook where there would be a problem with me walking from the parking lot to the range with an unloaded gun in my holster and leaving with an unloaded gun in my holster. Please enlighten me. Parking lot is part of the match. It becomes a problem, once you unholster or unbar at your car. We've now got you handling a gun, not under RO supervision/direction, and not at a safe table..... While I don't have a rulebook in front of me, I'm confident of my ability to find a rule in section 10.5 that warrants a match DQ for gun handling in the parking lot.... Now if you're getting in the car with the holstered, unloaded gun to drive home, or arriving that way -- that works too, as long as you keep the gun belt on...... I would think this covers it... 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. I don't believe the parking lot is a designated safe area. This is from USPSA Area 6 2014 Championships... COLD RANGE…South River Gun Club is a cold range. Firearms will not be handled anywhere on the range except in designated safety areas or under the direct supervision of a certified staff Range Officer. Handling firearms in parking areas is deemed unsafe gun handling This is from USPSA Area 8 LOADED FIREARMS: If you carry a gun, please stow it or unload it PRIOR to arriving at the range. USPSA events are strictly “cold range” (NO loaded firearm) events, and that includes the parking area. This is from 2010 Georgia State Championship... COLD RANGE: River Bend Gun Club is a cold range. Firearms will not be handled anywhere on the range except in designated safety areas or under the direct supervision of a certified staff Range Officer. Handling firearms in parking areas is deemed unsafe gun handling. This from 2012 Indiana State USPSA Championship... COLD RANGE: WRPC is a cold range. Firearms will not be handled anywhere on the range except in designated safety areas or under the direct supervision of a staff RO. Handling firearms in the parking lot is unsafe gun handling. My bet is that anywhere there is a USPSA match, the handling of a gun in the parking lot is DQable. Just sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The only places you holster or unholster are: at your vehicle in the parking lot. I'm assuming this is not a USPSA match then? Handling a gun at your car at a USPSA match will get you sent home early. You've got parking lot nazis at your USPSA-sanctioned matches? Interesting. I will admit I have not read every letter of the USPSA rules and am ignorant what the rule book says about handling your gun in/at your car in the range's parking lot. But I'll look now. Not finding it. In fact, section 2.5.1 provides for the possibility of competitors arriving at a USPSA match with a loaded firearm on them. Are we talking about an area where local gun laws are in play, not USPSA rules? My practice is to arrive with an unloaded firearm in my range bag. When I decide it's time to holster my gun, I go to one of the safe areas and put the unloaded gun (hammer down, no magazine in, of course) in my holster. I remain in that state until the match is over or unless I'm shooting a stage. Section 5.2 appears to explicitly allow for this practice. I don't see in the USPSA rulebook where there would be a problem with me walking from the parking lot to the range with an unloaded gun in my holster and leaving with an unloaded gun in my holster. Please enlighten me. Parking lot is part of the match. It becomes a problem, once you unholster or unbar at your car. We've now got you handling a gun, not under RO supervision/direction, and not at a safe table..... While I don't have a rulebook in front of me, I'm confident of my ability to find a rule in section 10.5 that warrants a match DQ for gun handling in the parking lot.... Now if you're getting in the car with the holstered, unloaded gun to drive home, or arriving that way -- that works too, as long as you keep the gun belt on...... A parking lot is not always part of the match, depending on how the range is set up. It's extremely common at several large ranges in the West to handle guns and holsters at cars, especially for those who carry daily the same gun with which they compete. Like it or not, but USPSA doesn't address it. USPSA rules allow for a load/unload station, and if one is provided, it must be used in lieu of entering the match area with a loaded gun to handle it somewhere there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Land -- it's a little more crowded east of the Mississippi....... Thanks for the heads-up; if I'm ever out west I'll make sure to ask whether the parking lot is part of the match or not..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimo-Hombre Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Land -- it's a little more crowded east of the Mississippi....... Thanks for the heads-up; if I'm ever out west I'll make sure to ask whether the parking lot is part of the match or not..... I think it is safe to say that once you get out of your car in the parking lot you are at the match. Edited July 29, 2015 by Ultimo-Hombre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Land -- it's a little more crowded east of the Mississippi....... Thanks for the heads-up; if I'm ever out west I'll make sure to ask whether the parking lot is part of the match or not..... I think it is safe to say that once you get out of your car in the parking lot you are at the match.Absolutely. You know when you are at a match in my opinion. Doing it in some places does not make it right. Somebody said something about match nazis watching for this. I'm not a match nazi but I am a match director and yes I regularly watch what goes on in the parking lot of my match since it is all within eyesight of the registration table. I feel it's part of my job frankly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I do not like walking around with a holstered gun Has it become bad USPSA etiquette to want to bag your gun? Aren't you sorry you asked? Actually, it is obviously a Great Question since so many very well informed shooters (RO's and MD's included" seem to disagree. Lots of great ideas here - 1st, check at any match you attend what their policy is. Then, touch your gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) "Handling firearms in parking areas is deemed unsafe gun handling" is not a USPSA rule. It's a rule certain ranges have. Edited July 29, 2015 by GunBugBit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) attend a level II/III USPSA match & make sure a match official sees you handling your firearm at your car in the parking area at the match & watch what happens .... Edited July 29, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottlep Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 I do not like walking around with a holstered gun Has it become bad USPSA etiquette to want to bag your gun? Aren't you sorry you asked? I definitely seemed to open up quite the can of worms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) I'm sure it doesn't have to be a level II/III USPSA match for a legitimate DQ. If the range's parking lot is part of the match area, which in many cases it must be, of course the rules would apply -- USPSA rules and/or the range's rules. We've drifted away from "walking around with holstered guns." The USPSA rule book allows for it. 5.2 Holsters and Other Competitor Equipment5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). Edited July 29, 2015 by GunBugBit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 "Handling firearms in parking areas is deemed unsafe gun handling" is not a USPSA rule. It's a rule certain ranges have. 10.5.1 Read the rule book please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Now I read the whole 3 pages and forgot what I was going to say. Oh, yea, holstered or bagged. For as long as I have played USPSA and Steel Challenge, I have seen it both ways. Since I shoot Glocks in Limited, I always have it holstered. It takes more time to unbag and bag at the stage, but I understand the Open gun guys don't want there pretty shiny STI guns to get dusty or wet or finger printed. I don't have an issue taking a bag as an RO, unless it's ChuckS, then I drop it in the dirt and stomp on it..... Our local sanctioned club does go by 10.5.1 and I know a couple of guys got DQ'd at the Nationals for handling in the parking lot. So my deal is I take my carry Glock off and put it in the vehicle, then take my range bag to the safe area at the stage and get dressed. Personally I think that a holstered gun is better than a bag. I mean if you are on duty, or CCW, you have a hot holstered gun anyway. Never seen anyone conceal a hot gun in a bag.... But I have seen Open guns pitch out of those Bikini holsters and guys with bungi cords on them, especially at 3 gun matches. Edited July 29, 2015 by 9x45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaterHead Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 When one can unbag and holster in the parking lot, then it is way too easy to start doing lots of things with the gun at your car in the parking lot. Showing it to a friend, cleaning it, playing with it, you name it. Most of us who play this game want to play safely, and it starts with not playing in the parking lot. It's not about rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Personally, I think if you don't feel comfortable with a holstered gun for the duration of the match, you need a better holster or a cheaper gun, or maybe a lighter one. At least USPSA has the silly P in the name, and I was the vince king of USPSA I would require all guns to stay holstered with obvious exceptions for bathroom breaks, safe table activities, etc. If you are worried your gun will fall out, get a better holster. If you are worried about the the weather, get a gun that at least pretends to be practical and doesn't turn into a $4k rust covered VW bug when it mists outside. If it is too heavy, get a a lighter gun. The range command is if clear hammer down holster, not if clear hammer down fumble with gun condoms. At steel matches, sure whatever, we don't even require holsters for rimfire so yeah bag away, but if your USPSA gun can't live on your hip for a few hours, maybe it is time to re-examine your equipment choices. But that's me, and I don't actually want to be king of USPSA so feel free to do whatever you wish within the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 "Handling firearms in parking areas is deemed unsafe gun handling" is not a USPSA rule. It's a rule certain ranges have. 10.5.1 Read the rule book please. 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. ___ You read it. Then tell me where you see the parking lot explicitly defined as part of the match area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 A parking lot is not always part of the match, depending on how the range is set up. It's extremely common at several large ranges in the West to handle guns and holsters at cars, especially for those who carry daily the same gun with which they compete. Like it or not, but USPSA doesn't address it. USPSA rules allow for a load/unload station, and if one is provided, it must be used in lieu of entering the match area with a loaded gun to handle it somewhere there. Exactly. I don't think this how they roll in other parts of the country, though, due to a combination of range rules and local firearm laws. These non-USPSA rules/laws are attributed to USPSA on a topic where the rule book is actually silent. The USPSA rule book says nothing about parking lots nor how to define the boundaries of the match area that will be governed by USPSA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 "Handling firearms in parking areas is deemed unsafe gun handling" is not a USPSA rule. It's a rule certain ranges have. 10.5.1 Read the rule book please. 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. ___ You read it. Then tell me where you see the parking lot explicitly defined as part of the match area. Thank you. Look how many matches are at indoor venues. Okay, so is the parking lot still part of the match here, too? We had a local one at an indoor range with a common parking lot with a strip mall. Now where is their magic line? Gee, do I need to wear my hearing and eye protection in my car in the parking lot, too, if it's part of the range? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Personally, I think if you don't feel comfortable with a holstered gun for the duration of the match, you need a better holster or a cheaper gun, or maybe a lighter one. At least USPSA has the silly P in the name, and I was the vince king of USPSA I would require all guns to stay holstered with obvious exceptions for bathroom breaks, safe table activities, etc. If you are worried your gun will fall out, get a better holster. If you are worried about the the weather, get a gun that at least pretends to be practical and doesn't turn into a $4k rust covered VW bug when it mists outside. If it is too heavy, get a a lighter gun. The range command is if clear hammer down holster, not if clear hammer down fumble with gun condoms. At steel matches, sure whatever, we don't even require holsters for rimfire so yeah bag away, but if your USPSA gun can't live on your hip for a few hours, maybe it is time to re-examine your equipment choices. But that's me, and I don't actually want to be king of USPSA so feel free to do whatever you wish within the rules. Man, are you going to make the Open Division guys feel awkward. Don't know how anyone can feel uncomfortable with a holstered gun at a competition action pistol match? Isn't that what they are there for? Maybe this game is not for those guys, and they should take up competitive quilting with the old ladies. Watch out for those sharp needles! And I go hands above shoulders and use a holster for my 22/45 rimfire in Steel Challenge because low ready rimes with grey. If I were El Prez of USPSA there would only be 2 divisions, Open, not practical, (no rules no limits, what ever you want to do with the gun and gear) and As Designed, practical, (flush fit mags only). You want to shoot a gun with 8+1 or 17+1, that's up to you. You not special if you choose to have less caps. No wheel guns, that's what ICORE is for. Do away with major and raise the power floor to 150 so those grey guys shooting mouse 9mms will have to step up to +P+. Everyone wears your gun the whole time. No grey baggies and no grey covers. As Designed division will be in 2 categories, LEO/Military and not LEO. LEO/Mil will wear full duty gear, browne belt, Level III retention, SWAT thigh rig, cuffs, radio, OC spray, Tazer, flap mags pouches, flashlight, beating stick, body armor, etx. Not LEO will wear IWB holsters, IWB mag pouches, and shoot from concealment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Man, are you going to make the Open Division guys feel awkward. Oh I don't know, they always looked awkward to me Yes I kid, I'm actually ok with people bagging their guns, I just don't want people to think that everyone is going to agree with their way of doing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 ...If I were El Prez of USPSA there would only be 2 divisions, Open, not practical, (no rules no limits, what ever you want to do with the gun and gear) and As Designed, practical, (flush fit mags only). You want to shoot a gun with 8+1 or 17+1, that's up to you. You not special if you choose to have less caps. No wheel guns, that's what ICORE is for. Do away with major and raise the power floor to 150 so those grey guys shooting mouse 9mms will have to step up to +P+. Everyone wears your gun the whole time. No grey baggies and no grey covers. As Designed division will be in 2 categories, LEO/Military and not LEO. LEO/Mil will wear full duty gear, browne belt, Level III retention, SWAT thigh rig, cuffs, radio, OC spray, Tazer, flap mags pouches, flashlight, beating stick, body armor, etx. Not LEO will wear IWB holsters, IWB mag pouches, and shoot from concealment. I was there with you right up until the end. I know a lot of cops that don't wear half that much stuff on duty, and I know a lot of plain folk who open carry, or conceal without IWB. Ugh. But I liked where you were going with the rest of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Vlad, Oh I don't know, they always looked awkward to me And they are the ones who are always touching their guns, like checking if they have fallen out. Must be part of the cool of open.... MAC702, But I liked where you were going with the rest of it! Actually forgot about plain clothes dudes, but they would have to make their run in suits. We don't have open carry in California, so that adds another category. But you liked the change in power floor, right? I don't know how you conceal without a IWB either. Oh, one more thing, appendix IWB would be acceptable if that's the way you roll. Still no shoulder holsters, or small of the back, gotta have some rules you know. Edited July 29, 2015 by 9x45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Actually I don't like Rule 10.5.1 because I would rather see a dumb dumb put a cap in their own car rather than put one in me on a stage.... I would believe a discharge into your car in the parking lot would be a DQ? Plus you could be charged with negligent discharge, arrested and have your gun spend some time at the PD (probably won't come back with those expensive hicaps) Edited July 29, 2015 by 9x45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterthefish Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Oh, one more thing, appendix IWB would be acceptable if that's the way you roll. Still no shoulder holsters, or small of the back, gotta have some rules you know. I think there's at least one guy shooting Limited from an AIWB holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Oh, one more thing, appendix IWB would be acceptable if that's the way you roll. Still no shoulder holsters, or small of the back, gotta have some rules you know. I think there's at least one guy shooting Limited from an AIWB holster. That would be me. Had to change to a regular OWB holster at a big match in AZ one time because the RO's didn't dig it (no rule against it). But if you go against an RO at a big match, he is on the radio with his RO buds and you are now a DQ/Procedural magnet. So I put on my old BladeTech solid laminate from decades ago and then we were all friends again. Better to have happy ROs. Edited July 29, 2015 by 9x45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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