Loading to Division Capacity

[RMark]

In SSP the Division Capacity is 10 rounds in mag. You can start with 10 plus 1 rounds, If the stage says load to division capacity, but do you have to have start with 10 plus 1 or can you start with just 10 ? I shot a match Sat. and was some just loading 10. It worked best for reloading on this stage. I was this after I shot the stage.

Mark

[JackinSD]

8.1.3.1 SSP – 10 rounds

8.1.3.7 In SSP, ESP, CCP, and CDP, and semi-auto BUG the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.

[Tom C]

I don't recall any rule that makes it a penalty if you don't top off.

[JackinSD]

8.1.2 Magazine Loading

8.1.2.1 All magazines must be loaded to division capacity at the start signal throughout the match except in the following cases:

8.1.2.2 If a magazine is used that holds less than division capacity, the shooter will load all magazines to the capacity of the lowest magazine throughout the match.

8.1.2.3 The CoF description may require reduced magazine loading.

8.1.2.4 In the Revolver division the shooter must load the revolver and all loading devices with the same number of rounds throughout the match unless the above loading exceptions apply.

[davsco]

the concept is you wouldn't carry your defense gun with less than max capacity, so you load to division capacity (10+1 in ssp). now that round dumping is legal, you just burn a round so that you reload after your 2nd shot at slidelock on the 5th target, vs after one shot on the 6th target where you'd have to go back to T6 with the 2nd shot.

[RMark]

8.1.3.1 SSP – 10 rounds

8.1.3.7 In SSP, ESP, CCP, and CDP, and semi-auto BUG the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.

I look in the rule book. Division Capacity is 10 for SSP. Rule 8.1.3.7 the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber. It does not say you have to top the mag off. For the new Bug class it 6 total, 5 plus 1 only to start. Would not the rules say 10 plus 1 for the others to start, if it was required.

Mark

Edited April 14, 2015 by RMark

[afoulk]

1.3.2.3 Allows the use of common sense instead of well written rules. Davsco wins on this one.

[JackinSD]

8.1.3.1 SSP – 10 rounds

8.1.3.7 In SSP, ESP, CCP, and CDP, and semi-auto BUG the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.

I look in the rule book. Division Capacity is 10 for SSP. Rule 8.1.3.7 the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber. It does not say you have to top the mag off. For the new Bug class it 6 total, 5 plus 1 only to start. Would not the rules say 10 plus 1 for the others to start, if it was required.

Mark

Combine this with 8.1.2.1, and hopefully you will figure it out.

[cnote]

This is a game of time, loading mags to different amounts to save time is illegal, or at least it was , can't keep track anymore.

[Jane]

8.1.3.1 SSP – 10 rounds

8.1.3.7 In SSP, ESP, CCP, and CDP, and semi-auto BUG the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.

I look in the rule book. Division Capacity is 10 for SSP. Rule 8.1.3.7 the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber. It does not say you have to top the mag off. .....

Mark

8.1.2.1 says "All magazines must be loaded to division capacity at the start signal... " with a few specific exceptions.

So if your magazine can be loaded to division capacity at the start signal without having to top off the mag, then you don't have to top off the mag.

[chb119]

8.1.3.1 SSP – 10 rounds

8.1.3.7 In SSP, ESP, CCP, and CDP, and semi-auto BUG the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.

I look in the rule book. Division Capacity is 10 for SSP. Rule 8.1.3.7 the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber. It does not say you have to top the mag off. For the new Bug class it 6 total, 5 plus 1 only to start. Would not the rules say 10 plus 1 for the others to start, if it was required.

Mark

It says it in more words. If you load 10, then chamber 1 at "load and make ready." At the start signal (buzzer), you will have 9 loaded in the magazine, 1 below division capacity. Violation of 8.1.2.1. The moment that buzzer goes off if loaded to division capacity there must be 10 rounds in the magazine.

Edited April 14, 2015 by chb119

[Marshal82]

I see new shooters get penalties for this all the time. Load to division capacity and avoid the 3 sec penalty.

[mcb]

1.3.2.3 Allows the use of common sense instead of well written rules. Davsco wins on this one.

That is the funniest thing I have read all day!

So can the competitor show up at the start position with 11rds in their start magazine, assuming a loaded start? Similar to the way many L-10 and Production shooters do so there is not so much time spent juggling magazines.

Edited April 14, 2015 by mcb

[Jim Watson]

Yes. If you have high capacity ammunition feeding devices, load your Load And Make Ready magazine with 11 to simplify setting up. Mark it so you do not carry it as an improper reload magazine.

[FTDMFR]

In SSP the Division Capacity is 10 rounds in mag. You can start with 10 plus 1 rounds, If the stage says load to division capacity, but do you have to have start with 10 plus 1 or can you start with just 10 ? I shot a match Sat. and was some just loading 10. It worked best for reloading on this stage. I was this after I shot the stage.

Mark

That's a PE. Loaded to division capacity in SSP means 10+1.

Edited April 14, 2015 by FTDMFR

[davsco]

yep i got that PE last year. loaded everything to 10 at home so i wouldn't accidentally have an 11 in the wrong place. got there late, forgot to top off the mag i started with. not only did i get the PE but i did a make up shot and thought i had enough but of course didn't so it totally messed up my reload.

[kirbinster]

Division capacity is capacity +1 when you start with the gun in the holster. If it is a loaded table start, or any other location than the holster then it is only division capacity with no plus 1. So as not to make a mistake as to which magazine might have 11 versus 10 I never load any to 11 ahead of time. I got to the line with two on my belt with 10 rounds and another one with 10 with an extra round in my hand that I insert into that magazine (mine typically hold 15) so that only just before the load and make ready command does the magazine actually have that +1 round.

[Thomas H]

Division capacity is capacity +1 when you start with the gun in the holster. If it is a loaded table start, or any other location than the holster then it is only division capacity with no plus 1.

What? No.

8.1.3.1 SSP 10 rounds

8.1.3.7 In SSP, ESP, CCP, and CDP, and semi-auto BUG the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.

The rules make no mention at all of where the gun is, when it specifies the +1. If the gun is loaded, unless the description specifically says differently, SSP will be 10+1 whether in the holster, on a table, or any place else.

The ONLY time that wouldn't be true is if the description specifies an unloaded start (whereupon obviously you wouldn't have the +1) or for some reason the CoF requires a certain specific initial load amount.

[kirbinster]

Division capacity is capacity +1 when you start with the gun in the holster. If it is a loaded table start, or any other location than the holster then it is only division capacity with no plus 1.

What? No.

8.1.3.1 SSP 10 rounds

8.1.3.7 In SSP, ESP, CCP, and CDP, and semi-auto BUG the shooter will also start with one round in the chamber, unless the CoF description requires otherwise.

The rules make no mention at all of where the gun is, when it specifies the +1. If the gun is loaded, unless the description specifically says differently, SSP will be 10+1 whether in the holster, on a table, or any place else.

The ONLY time that wouldn't be true is if the description specifies an unloaded start (whereupon obviously you wouldn't have the +1) or for some reason the CoF requires a certain specific initial load amount.

Thanks for correcting me, this is the trouble I get into shooting both IDPA and USPSA. Had a match this weekend where the gun started in a box and the stage description did not say anything about chamber empty. I considered this a dangerous situation as it seemed too easy for someone to accidentally hit the trigger while extracting the gun. The MD then said load it but don't rack it. I believe what I was thinking when I posted before is USPSA where it is only capacity+1 when holstered. Again thanks for the correction.

[davsco]

rule, at least in production, is the same in both idpa and uspsa. loaded start, 11 in the gun, unloaded start, only 10 rounds in the mag. holster or table is not a determining factor. of course in uspsa you can load less if you want to.

[M1911]

As an SO, I could the rounds fired before a reload. I regularly give PEs to people who started with only 10 rounds in the gun, when they should have had 11.

In SSP, if your magazine capacity is 10 or more, you must load to 10+1, unless the stage instructions direct otherwise.

[motosapiens]

Had a match this weekend where the gun started in a box and the stage description did not say anything about chamber empty. I considered this a dangerous situation as it seemed too easy for someone to accidentally hit the trigger while extracting the gun.

I think someone who would accidentally hit the trigger while picking up a gun is equally likely to accidentally hit the trigger when drawing the gun. Loaded table starts are not at all unusual. Everyone I've seen specifies that the gun must be pointing downrange, so if an unsafe shooter does cook off a round, it will only be a match dq instead of something worse.

[kirbinster]

Had a match this weekend where the gun started in a box and the stage description did not say anything about chamber empty. I considered this a dangerous situation as it seemed too easy for someone to accidentally hit the trigger while extracting the gun.

I think someone who would accidentally hit the trigger while picking up a gun is equally likely to accidentally hit the trigger when drawing the gun. Loaded table starts are not at all unusual. Everyone I've seen specifies that the gun must be pointing downrange, so if an unsafe shooter does cook off a round, it will only be a match dq instead of something worse.

Table start was not my concern, it was the fact that the gun was loaded in the box on the table. I think there is a much higher likelihood of someone accidentally grabbing the trigger taking it out of a box than just picking it up off the table. Especially that day when we had a lot of new shooters.

[motosapiens]

Had a match this weekend where the gun started in a box and the stage description did not say anything about chamber empty. I considered this a dangerous situation as it seemed too easy for someone to accidentally hit the trigger while extracting the gun.

I think someone who would accidentally hit the trigger while picking up a gun is equally likely to accidentally hit the trigger when drawing the gun. Loaded table starts are not at all unusual. Everyone I've seen specifies that the gun must be pointing downrange, so if an unsafe shooter does cook off a round, it will only be a match dq instead of something worse.

Table start was not my concern, it was the fact that the gun was loaded in the box on the table. I think there is a much higher likelihood of someone accidentally grabbing the trigger taking it out of a box than just picking it up off the table. Especially that day when we had a lot of new shooters.

That's a fair point. I missed the 'box' part.

[okorpheus]

The rule is all mags have to be loaded to division capacity at the start signal, not loaded to capacity at load and make ready. If all mags only have 10 when you come to the line and you don't top off, the mag in the gun is not at division capacity after you rack the slide - and is not loaded to division capacity at the start signal.

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