Is Steel Challenge Dying?

[drysideshooter]

I believe Zack is right. It won't fade away quickly, but I wouldn't be surprised to see more clubs go to running their own stages t keep things more fun for the majority of shootrers, especially since so many clubs obviously feel the feel to SCSA doesn't get them anything.

I for one have become pretty disappointed in the USPSA organization overall.

[RickT]

Has USPSA reached out to the member clubs for feedback on SC including asking the clubs to survey their members: format change suggestions, reason for dropping/not holding SC events (club level), individual interest in SC, etc.? Might be something to learn from clubs that continue to hold well-attended SC matches. Why on earth did USPSA take over SC if they had no intention of putting some effort in sustaining/growing the sport.

It seems like a great sport to introduce action pistol sports to young/new shooters with rimfire rifle and pistol. Great for disabled shooters who can't do IDPA/USPSA stages (Is it necessary to have one stage with movement on the clock?),

[Rob D]

In my neck of the woods, Steel Challenge is more popular than ever. There used to be 1-2 matches a month and now almost every USPSA club is also hosting steel challenge.

IMHO Steel challenge should serve as an on-ramp for competitive shooters. They have been shooting the same 8 stages for 20+ years. Of course it's boring. Aside from a few specialists who shoot enough steel challenge to make the national championship a profitable endeavor based on entry free/prize value ratio, most of the local steel challenge matches here are attended by people who are new to the shooting sports and looking for something simple they can try out.

If you want a steel match that gives you the same kind of rush USPSA shooting does, try Pro-Am.

[mosher]

definitely growing in our area too. as for getting tired of the stages, the two clubs in our area mix in their own stages in addition to 3-4 of the classifiers each month

[ZackJones]

Don't know if anyone reads the USPSA forum but there has been a pretty interesting discussion on steel challenge with the guys running for the president election.

[MikeFoley]

Steel Challenge has been a travesty. With all of our resources, we have not run it as well as two guys doing it part time. We have not utilized it as the entry point and marketing vehicle it could be. It is too expensive at the highest level, and only a handful of people stand a chance to win any prizes.

Below are the issues I see that can be corrected, and some potential solutions that I have put together with some input from other experienced steel challenge shooters in the past few months.

ISSUES:

1. There is no incentive for clubs to affiliate, and most of the club steel matches are outlaw matches. This is due largely to the fact that they like more variety than the 8 stages SC offers, and some of them don't have the distance in their bays to run the longer ones. The club matches are the most popular for shooters of all skill levels, ages, genders, and fitness levels. They are a great entry point to all other types of practical shooting for many. They offer more variety than steel challenge, and are much easier to setup. They reward the core shooting skills and not the memorization that steel challenge rewards. That was obvious when a competitor noted that a plate was off by three inches because of his "muscle memory". They are easy and fun, and often sell out at the club level.

2. At the national level, to travel and shoot multiple divisions, it is priced extremely high for the average competitor who has no chance of winning. Remember, there are no class wins, and we don't do Lewis system allocation either.

SOLUTIONS:

1. More stages, much like USPSA Classifiers, 25-50 of them, and flexible setup options allowing the stage to be what it is, where it is, and not be practiced so exactly that one can master a stage, but rely on mastering the skill. All of them would be 5-7 plates and very little movement, but different presentations that we see in NSSF Rimfire matches, and club matches.

2. For major matches, publish 20 stages months in advance, and run any 10 of them at the match. This would allow clubs to setup similar stages, and members to practice that cannot afford a week or more vacation days. Do not open the practice range, or the stages for viewing until 24 hours before the first shots, allowing everyone a level chance at shooting the match. EITHER reduce the entry fees, and offer Lewis class prizes to allow the pros to compete at the top level, and everyone else to fall into their peer group, OR make it a PRO-AM style match where you declare PRO or AM and give cash to the PROs and Lewis prizes to the AMs.

3. Offer clubs an affiliation package where they could purchase or earn steel from sponsors of the sport, and offer a club series points program for affiliated clubs so competitors can see how they stack up against other competitors on similar stages all year long, and award some small prizes at the end of the year.

4. Heavily promote regional matches for any affiliated club that wants to have them, and help them borrow or purchase steel for the match.

To resuscitate Steel Challenge and grow it, to utilize it as our entry point, and to make it club friendly, it has to become less rigid, less expensive, and more rewarding to the average shooter.

[mosher]

are you mike foley that's running for president?

[MikeFoley]

Yes, I am, and I am trying to get the mods to change my profile name so that it is more obvious.

[drysideshooter]

All EXCELLENT ideas Mike! You will have my vote. That is if I ever get my renewal membership materials. Heck, I would be happy to even hear back from Beth at USPSA about when I can expect to receive my new cards (son and I). I have to say I have been less than happy with the lack of responsiveness to member questions the past coupe of years.

I sincerely hope you get elected and are able to change Steel Challenge as you have outlined. I believe it's an important way to get new shooters exposed to the action shooting sports, especially kids.

[Ming the Merciless]

My wife and I are relatively new to handguns and very new to SC, but really enjoying the sport. We're 50 miles south of San Jose, CA and it's our experience you've got to be willing to travel. The nearest club shoots their SC 70 miles south of us. The next nearest monthly matches are in San Luis Obispo, about 160 miles. We've also decided to drive to Piru once or twice a month to shoot their WCSC stages. I hope finding steel competition doesn't get any harder since my wife really, really likes SC.

There is another Steel Challenge match at the Sac. Valley Shooting Center on the 3rd Sunday of the month May thru Oct. They shoot a mix of stages, some matches are the traditional 8 Steel Challenge stages and other matches are 8 new stages. The turnout is 30 to 50 people. My wife also likes shooting Steel Challenge both with rimfire pistols and rifles.

http://www.actionpistol.org/svss/schedule/default.html

Edited March 12, 2015 by Ming the Merciless

[Ming the Merciless]

Has USPSA reached out to the member clubs for feedback on SC including asking the clubs to survey their members: format change suggestions, reason for dropping/not holding SC events (club level), individual interest in SC, etc.? Might be something to learn from clubs that continue to hold well-attended SC matches. Why on earth did USPSA take over SC if they had no intention of putting some effort in sustaining/growing the sport.

It seems like a great sport to introduce action pistol sports to young/new shooters with rimfire rifle and pistol. Great for disabled shooters who can't do IDPA/USPSA stages (Is it necessary to have one stage with movement on the clock?),

Nope, at least not anywhere locally to me.

[DougCarden]

All,

My .02 centavos.

There is nothing wrong with the Steel Challenge, period.

The people that want to shoot head to head and see how they do against the best shooters in the world still do.

The National match in Florida next week is a prime example. It is sold out weeks ahead of the match. They have a reasonable entry fee and have a great prize table. If you put time and effort in you can do well and win a nice prize. Just like it always has been, period. They give out plaques out to 3rd place and have a podium ceremony so you can take pictures/video. It is treated like a big deal because it is, it is the National tournament.

They have match personnel that are responsible for the match and the prize table. If they don't put a good match on and have a good prize table then everyone will talk and attendance will be down next year. Those are the people that will shoulder the blame or get the kudos. There is not that currently at USPSA.......

If you advertise the match location and the particulars of the match at the match and then get advertising out to the masses after that then people will come and shoot it. We just can't wait 4 months out to get the range settled up and then play catch up. There are a lot of good matches out there, and people will go somewhere else.

If you want it to be a prime attraction then you need someone to put their name on it and own it, not have it as something that is done by committee. The Mikes were able to make the SC the premier steel match in the nation because their name was on it, and they had pride in what they did.

Now as it appears it is an afterthought, when people have time to get around to it, and no one is tapped to be responsible to for getting prizes. If you are going to pay big bucks for a match the shooters expect a chance to bring something home. I am so tired of hearing about people whining about good shooters selling whatever they win. I am not a good shooter, but I pretty much have everthing I won at the challenge, and everytime I look at them or shoot them I remember that match and the good times I had.

Let's put it this way.....If the SC was dead, I doubt Jerry Barnhart would have come out of retirement and shot it last year.......By the smile on his face I don't think he thinks its on it's way out.....

I like the idea of different stages and classifiers, but there is nothing wrong with SC, and it ain't dead......it just needs someone to run it........

....See ya'all in FL next week.......

DougC

Edited March 12, 2015 by DougCarden

[PPGMD]

ISSUES:

2. At the national level, to travel and shoot multiple divisions, it is priced extremely high for the average competitor who has no chance of winning. Remember, there are no class wins, and we don't do Lewis system allocation either.

SOLUTIONS:

1. More stages, much like USPSA Classifiers, 25-50 of them, and flexible setup options allowing the stage to be what it is, where it is, and not be practiced so exactly that one can master a stage, but rely on mastering the skill. All of them would be 5-7 plates and very little movement, but different presentations that we see in NSSF Rimfire matches, and club matches.

2. For major matches, publish 20 stages months in advance, and run any 10 of them at the match. This would allow clubs to setup similar stages, and members to practice that cannot afford a week or more vacation days. Do not open the practice range, or the stages for viewing until 24 hours before the first shots, allowing everyone a level chance at shooting the match. EITHER reduce the entry fees, and offer Lewis class prizes to allow the pros to compete at the top level, and everyone else to fall into their peer group, OR make it a PRO-AM style match where you declare PRO or AM and give cash to the PROs and Lewis prizes to the AMs.

3. Offer clubs an affiliation package where they could purchase or earn steel from sponsors of the sport, and offer a club series points program for affiliated clubs so competitors can see how they stack up against other competitors on similar stages all year long, and award some small prizes at the end of the year.

4. Heavily promote regional matches for any affiliated club that wants to have them, and help them borrow or purchase steel for the match.

To resuscitate Steel Challenge and grow it, to utilize it as our entry point, and to make it club friendly, it has to become less rigid, less expensive, and more rewarding to the average shooter.

The Steel Nationals are routinely full. In fact based on the last squad list there are only 7 spots left. I would say the issue is more with USPSA's management of the World match than the sport itself (it is mid-March and the June match isn't announced yet and the domain has been lost).

I disagree with the random stages at major matches. Steel Challenge isn't USPSA, and I don't think that we should turn it into that.

Beyond that I agree with most of your suggestions. The issue that needs to be dealt with is getting greater club level support, and hopefully state and regional matches.

ETA: I was called away, and I see Doug mentioned some of this stuff already while the post sat unfinished.

Edited March 12, 2015 by PPGMD

[PPGMD]

Well I went real quick to check the final squad list. They list the US Steel Nationals are completely full.

http://www.ussteelshoot.com/

And this is without the USPSA linking to it as the National Match on their website.

[MikeFoley]

My suggestions are neither comprehensive nor contingent upon one another. We will obviously need to put our collective heads together, but someone has to start the process.

[MikeFoley]

duplicate

Edited March 13, 2015 by fomeister

[Nimitz]

All,

My .02 centavos.

There is nothing wrong with the Steel Challenge, period.

The people that want to shoot head to head and see how they do against the best shooters in the world still do.

The National match in Florida next week is a prime example. It is sold out weeks ahead of the match. They have a reasonable entry fee and have a great prize table. If you put time and effort in you can do well and win a nice prize. Just like it always has been, period. They give out plaques out to 3rd place and have a podium ceremony so you can take pictures/video. It is treated like a big deal because it is, it is the National tournament.

They have match personnel that are responsible for the match and the prize table. If they don't put a good match on and have a good prize table then everyone will talk and attendance will be down next year. Those are the people that will shoulder the blame or get the kudos. There is not that currently at USPSA.......

If you advertise the match location and the particulars of the match at the match and then get advertising out to the masses after that then people will come and shoot it. We just can't wait 4 months out to get the range settled up and then play catch up. There are a lot of good matches out there, and people will go somewhere else.

If you want it to be a prime attraction then you need someone to put their name on it and own it, not have it as something that is done by committee. The Mikes were able to make the SC the premier steel match in the nation because their name was on it, and they had pride in what they did.

Now as it appears it is an afterthought, when people have time to get around to it, and no one is tapped to be responsible to for getting prizes. If you are going to pay big bucks for a match the shooters expect a chance to bring something home. I am so tired of hearing about people whining about good shooters selling whatever they win. I am not a good shooter, but I pretty much have everthing I won at the challenge, and everytime I look at them or shoot them I remember that match and the good times I had.

Let's put it this way.....If the SC was dead, I doubt Jerry Barnhart would have come out of retirement and shot it last year.......By the smile on his face I don't think he thinks its on it's way out.....

I like the idea of different stages and classifiers, but there is nothing wrong with SC, and it ain't dead......it just needs someone to run it........

....See ya'all in FL next week.......

DougC

+1.

why does it have to be more like USPSA? It's called the world speed shooting championships for a reason ... it rewards 3 of the fundamental action shooting skills ... fast draw, fast transitions and unrelenting accuracy .... i think a lot of people don't like it because it brutally highlights skill weaknesses. everyone watching instantly knows if you have issues ....

Max Michel calls it drag racing with a handgun.

Also, the new clasification system when enacted on 1 Jan should help a lot, you now will compete by division by classififcation and there is a whole new rimfire classification system as well ...

the only thing I'd like to see is more higher level matches. besides the US Steel Nationals, the Steel Challenge World Championship and the few state championships there isn't a lot out there. Setup area championships and state and sectional matches like USPSA does ...

Edited March 13, 2015 by Nimitz

[Nickb45]

Drysideshooter, I'm glad you guys had a good time at the YRPA match. It seems a lot of the "regulars" like the variety of stages (I know I do). I think it evens the playing field a little, you aren't shooting against some who practiced the stage the day before.

[bigtimelarry]

Griffin Georgia gets minimum 100 shooters every month for their Steel Challenge. They just started one in Taylorsville, Ga and its growing very fast. John Nagel (SJC Owner) started one a few months back in Gainesville every month and its growing too. I don't think it's dying, sometimes the USPSA ONLY Snobs come out and get waxed and never come back again..

Your right PPGMD, I just checked and the U.S. Steel Challenge Nationals Website and it is FULL.. No more entries available..

Edited March 13, 2015 by bigtimelarry

[ZackJones]

I think Griffin runs as an outlaw match doesn't it? From checking the steel challenge web site I'd say the others do as well. The only club listed on the steel challenge web site is Creekside Firing Range in Norcross. The sad thing about them not being listed is I wouldn't have known about two of them them if it weren't for this thread. I travel to GA frequently and would love to catch a steel match if possible.

[PPGMD]

Zack,

Why report if the USPSA provides almost no advantage for reporting? I was just out at Griffen for the GA state match. The crew there runs a really efficient match, they run two relays of squads at the state match.

[Paul-the new guy]

It's like golf with a gun... it's the same 8 stages just like the same 18 holes but still very hard to master...

[MWP]

I like the Section and Area championship ideas, get people interested in it again.

[Guest]

It's like golf with a gun... it's the same 8 stages just like the same 18 holes but still very hard to master...

I'd say it is like bowling with a gun, and USPSA is more like golf. However, that is an uninformed opinion, though, since I don't do either.

[drysideshooter]

Drysideshooter, I'm glad you guys had a good time at the YRPA match. It seems a lot of the "regulars" like the variety of stages (I know I do). I think it evens the playing field a little, you aren't shooting against some who practiced the stage the day before.

That match always draws a really nice group of shooters and we really like the range. We own a set of steel and can set up any one SC stage we want, which is what we used to do. The variety sure makes things more fun, for us at least, and it sounds like some others as well.

We went to the range yesterday, and instead of setting up a SC stage, we shot a variety of different set-ups to try to improve our skills at shooting things for the first time. Any trip to the range with my son is a great time, but shooting different types of set-ups certainly makes it even more fun.

From my experience, it appears the association is largely clueless when it comes to what the clubs are doing. I used the match finder and club finder part of the website and contacted the clubs. Most are shooting what I guess are being called the "outlaw" matches, or non-SCSA stages. When I contacted the association about matches in our state and a few surrounding states I got back a reply that I can use the search function and there are 5 clubs in WA holding SCSA matches. Not sure why they don't know, and what may have caused clubs to start holding different types of matches, but the association is apparently pretty unaware of what the clubs are doing. I found it extra interesting since they are based out of Washington and didn't seem to know what is happening in their own backyard.

We are going to become regulars again at the YRPA matches and next month will start going to Ephrata regularly again too. The classification system of the SCSA was cool, but more than anything we enjoy the opportunity to shoot with a great group of folks at a nice range, and both of those places have always been a ton of fun. If things get turned around and things change with SCSA that will be great, but either way we are thankful to have some great shooting opportunities. We will probably try to go to some matches in Idaho and Oregon as well.