correct sight alignment, sight picture and trigger press, but still no

[corey4]

i have only taken pistols seriously in the last year. i have 5000 rounds thru my 34 and 3000 thru my 19. you would think after that many rounds i would be more proficient haha. to say the least, i am used to the glock grip angle. but, i have always wanted a M&P.

so here's the deal. i picked up a M&P9 pro last week. even though my sight alignment, sight picture and trigger press is correct, i am still hitting way low. i know this is due to holding with the glock grip angle. (stupid muscle memory! lol). so my question is, even thought the sights are lined up, why am i hitting low? i have already spent 450 rounds, the hits are getting better, but not POA/POI like my glock.

what am i doing wrong? i am wrapping my head around this issue, but i just don't fully understand it. am i "auto-correcting" at the last moment during my trigger press? in theory, a decent shooter should be able to pick up any pistol and be able to do ok. like i said, everything lines up correctly.

even though i am new, i am able to call my shots, notice if/and when the front sight dances around, i know when and why i screw up, etc.

thanks for the replies. i hope i made sense.

[al503]

How low is 'way low' and at what distance(s)?

It could be as simple as an incorrect sight height.

I'd get another shooter or two to shoot it and see if its the shooter or the pistol.

Edited January 9, 2015 by al503

[emjei]

I had the same issue ....

..... got me a CZ Shadow and sold the MP PRO

[Hi-Power Jack]

How low is 'way low' and at what distance(s)?

al503 has hit it on the head.

Have you tested the gun at 20 yards, from a solid bench rest?

How large were the groups? (I usually fire 12-15 shots, and

eliminate the 3-4 flyers - use the center group as my POI).

Is this with your reloads or factory ammo?

Anyone else fire your gun/ammo to confirm "LOW"?

Good luck with it.

[corey4]

all ammo was factory ammo. i don't reload. no one else proficient has fired the gun. i have not tested from a solid bench rest.

by way low, i meant it was 4.5-5" low at 10 or 15 yards. i was shooting at both of those distances. i know i started at 15 to test the gun out, but then moved to 10 to try and figure it out.

10 shot groups were about 2" wide, but were strung 4" vertically. you could tell i was walking the rounds in as i was trying to readjust my grip.

i'll get some pics up tonight if i have time to sneak to the range.

but my question still stands, it i have proper sight alignment, way low (it's not me snatching the trigger)? when i took my glock out to give it a go, all was fine.

[mgardner]

Some pistols require a 6 o'clock hold and others a "combat" zero which is the center of the dot at center mass. Sounds like yours is the latter if you are getting repeatable results. Get new sights.

[Hi-Power Jack]

You have not provided enough info to determine whether it is

your sights or your grip/trigger pull that needs adjustments.

mgardner and al503 made some good suggestions.

Shoot from a solid bench at 15-20 yards, slowly, at paper.

Test shooting with a 6 o'clock hold and a center hold, and

perhaps a center of dot hold (the dot on your front sight).

Try all three, and see if any of them group a POA.

Then, you'll know if you should adjust or change your

sights, or your grip.

[waktasz]

M&Ps impact behind the front sight dot so they also shoot low for me.

[PatJones]

What weight bullet are you shooting? Heavier bullets hit higher.

Slower/heavier bullets are in the barrel longer during the recoil cycle, so the barrel is pointing higher by the time they leave. If you're shooting 115's, it is likely your problem.

[3djedi]

How old is this m&p? Older versions are known for early unlocking and vertical stringing.....

Other than that it is probably you flinching. Bench rest it and see how it does.

Do some ball and dummy drills and you will know if it's flinching.

Edited January 10, 2015 by 3djedi

[corey4]

the M&P is brand new. manufacturing date of 11-18-14.

ammo is UMC 115gr.

the sight picture was the same for both guns. center hold on the dot for consistency between both guns.

the all the low hits from the M&P are not me flinching. there were a few that i did throw low and a few high, as you will see.

the vertical stringing i mentioned in a previous post was due to me trying to figure out were to hold the sights and adjusting my grip. you can see on the target as i walked the rounds in from low to high.

the pics below were from sunday night. i ran a few mags thru the M&P to "warm up" you could say. i found myself having to bring my shoulders up, lower my head, and push/roll up with the palm of my hand in order for the M&P to hit somewhat close to where i wanted. and it still hit low. the shots were all slow fire.

the glock was a lot faster cadence and i didn't have to think about anything.

i took a break to clean up brass, smoke a cig and clean up targets. i noticed i had 30 rounds left, so i set up another target at 10 yards. i picked up the M&P, held with a natural, relaxed grip (no scrunching my head down into my shoulders or rolling my wrist up), fired 10 rounds and all hits were 4-5" low. WTF got the glock out again, all were POA/POI.

for the pics, disregard the ammo brands on the targets. that was for an ammo comparison i did a few weeks ago.

[DagoRed]

they're definitely low, and to the left. First thing everybody thinks with low and to one side is trigger, I agree you should get somebody else to shoot it and see. It may be you have two things going on. I had a gun that me and two buddies all shot 2" low with. Obviously it wasn't me. I had the sights changed. I have read people that advocate adjusting your aim or shooting to get a particular gun to work for them. I'm in the camp of change the gun to match your shooting as above said with changing the sights (Dawson has a page with information on how to make the calculation on their site).

Good luck. I've been there, drives a guy nuts.

Red

[Fordfan485]

I had the same problem with my m&p pro. I replaced the trigger with the apex competition action enhancement kit and the problem went away.

[Build4u]

It is a good idea to have someone else shoot the pistol that you know is accurate. You will still need to learn to set it up for your self. The best way I have found is shooting prone when possible. My 50 yard set for an open gun at 50 yards was a patch of black pasters, 3 tall by 3 wide overlapping each other a little ending up about 2 1/4" square. I recently set up a new limited gun and used that same set up at 25 yards with iron sights.

I like prone because my arms are supported the gun still only held by hands, no sand bags, and your cheek is locked against your arm taking out movement of your head, you end up locked in. I am talking about being able to shoot tight groups here. If you have to use a bench try to support your forearms if you can getting as close to being prone as possible. sometimes off a rifle bench you can still lock in your head. For both styles I try to run the shortest magazine I have, drop my weak hand down until the edge of my hand and palm makes a big surface supporting the bottom of the gun on the bench without the magazine touching. Your grip should be very neutral and usually a little less pressure than when firing offhand. Stay relaxed, slow breath, look the shot off, and rest your eyes and blink in between shots. When you get it right the sight will be coming back close to perfect for the next shot.

On iron sights depending on lighting and my vision I will hold right on the bottom of the paster patch or 1/3 of the way up floating 2/3 over the sight. Just remember the poi verses hold point when checking. I usually shoot a six shot group. I set up 3 Glocks in the spring for myself and friends and the Dawson Precision poi guaranty was great. You have to start with the recommended set for your gun even if you already can calculate how much it is off. You shoot it again after install and if off tell them by how much and the new front sight will come very fast even if they have to make it no charge. That is for a fixed sight set, they offer an adjustable option for most as well.

[benos]

A general comment (on the thread's topic)... When shooting slow-fire, the grip angle should not have any affect on your ability to smoothly release the trigger so the bullets land on the POA.

[Dwight Stearns]

It has the appearance of recoil anticipation. A definitive test would be for you to hold and aim the gun and have someone else press the trigger. By doing that you can't anticipate. Because the M&P has a different trigger pull and different timing, your mind wants to correct for recoil that hasn't happened yet.

[bountyhunter]

i have only taken pistols seriously in the last year. i have 5000 rounds thru my 34 and 3000 thru my 19. you would think after that many rounds i would be more proficient haha. to say the least, i am used to the glock grip angle. but, i have always wanted a M&P.

so here's the deal. i picked up a M&P9 pro last week. even though my sight alignment, sight picture and trigger press is correct, i am still hitting way low. i know this is due to holding with the glock grip angle. (stupid muscle memory! lol). so my question is, even thought the sights are lined up, why am i hitting low? i have already spent 450 rounds, the hits are getting better, but not POA/POI like my glock.

what am i doing wrong? i am wrapping my head around this issue, but i just don't fully understand it. am i "auto-correcting" at the last moment during my trigger press? in theory, a decent shooter should be able to pick up any pistol and be able to do ok. like i said, everything lines up correctly.

even though i am new, i am able to call my shots, notice if/and when the front sight dances around, i know when and why i screw up, etc.

thanks for the replies. i hope i made sense.

I would suspect differences in trigger break. A Glock trigger is unlike any other (had to think a while to come up with a polite way to phrase that) and it probably does change your pull technique a little.

The same old trick I would recommend:

Shoot at an indoor range and make sure to keep your eyes open after you align the sights and pull. Use the muzzle flash as a backlight to check if the sights are still aligned. many of us close our eyes right at ignition so the last thing we remember is a beautiful sight pictre but it doesn't always stay there through ignition.

[bountyhunter]

It has the appearance of recoil anticipation. A definitive test would be for you to hold and aim the gun and have someone else press the trigger. By doing that you can't anticipate. Because the M&P has a different trigger pull and different timing, your mind wants to correct for recoil that hasn't happened yet.

That's also what I was thinking, since he said it: Glock's have no discernable "break point" on pull, just a long spring load takeup so you pretty much learn the break point and work with it. But you may be pushing forward at the same trigger point on the new gun right before it fires.

[ICEMAN550]

After shooting only my glocks for several months, I shot my sig p 229 dak and was hitting low also. I believe it 's just that you are used to the short glock trigger/reset. Like someone else has said , get the apex trigger . I shot the m &p pro with the flat straight apex(forget the name ) and it was as close to a 1911 trigger that I have ever seen.

[MilkMyDuds]

Another thing to try is to swap in a larger backstrap on your MP9.

The grips on Glocks are for large hands, and the MP9 grips are generally smaller. Coming from a large grip to a smaller one, your trigger finger naturally will become "longer", thus the low left hits.

[Build4u]

I was helping a friend shooting his Glock 34 and he shot left a lot. I was working on the issue with him and struggling more than normal with fixing the problem. Great trigger pull for a Glock with the full ZEV, KKM barrel, Dawson sights. It was not the gun. He came to an IPSC practice night and was center punching the targets while shooting fast. I think he was looking for his hits instead of a good follow through when slow firing. Further testing is needed lol.

[pistolpete10]

In recent years I've had to file the front sights on 3 pistols and replace the rear sight on 1, they shot low. I don't know what the problem is but some times adjustable sights really pay off. If you consistently shoot low and get decent groups then the gun shoots low and the sights need correcting.

[shws]

have someone else shoot to make sure it's not the gun/sight issue

[boatdoc173]

i have only taken pistols seriously in the last year. i have 5000 rounds thru my 34 and 3000 thru my 19. you would think after that many rounds i would be more proficient haha. to say the least, i am used to the glock grip angle. but, i have always wanted a M&P.

so here's the deal. i picked up a M&P9 pro last week. even though my sight alignment, sight picture and trigger press is correct, i am still hitting way low. i know this is due to holding with the glock grip angle. (stupid muscle memory! lol). so my question is, even thought the sights are lined up, why am i hitting low? i have already spent 450 rounds, the hits are getting better, but not POA/POI like my glock.

what am i doing wrong? i am wrapping my head around this issue, but i just don't fully understand it. am i "auto-correcting" at the last moment during my trigger press? in theory, a decent shooter should be able to pick up any pistol and be able to do ok. like i said, everything lines up correctly.

even though i am new, i am able to call my shots, notice if/and when the front sight dances around, i know when and why i screw up, etc.

thanks for the replies. i hope i made sense.

personally I find that most combat style pistols shoot low due to the relationship of the sights and barrel--combat sights vs target sights need a high POA( target sights are 6 o clock hold-- a ball on top of a stick--like you were taught in NRA safety courses) combat sights are anywhere from a bit higher--to H+Ks which are 12 o clock holds( th e barrel is aimed at the target but the sight is higher--works for me--hope it helps

[boatdoc173]

the M&P is brand new. manufacturing date of 11-18-14.

ammo is UMC 115gr.

the sight picture was the same for both guns. center hold on the dot for consistency between both guns.

the all the low hits from the M&P are not me flinching. there were a few that i did throw low and a few high, as you will see.

the vertical stringing i mentioned in a previous post was due to me trying to figure out were to hold the sights and adjusting my grip. you can see on the target as i walked the rounds in from low to high.

the pics below were from sunday night. i ran a few mags thru the M&P to "warm up" you could say. i found myself having to bring my shoulders up, lower my head, and push/roll up with the palm of my hand in order for the M&P to hit somewhat close to where i wanted. and it still hit low. the shots were all slow fire.

the glock was a lot faster cadence and i didn't have to think about anything.

i took a break to clean up brass, smoke a cig and clean up targets. i noticed i had 30 rounds left, so i set up another target at 10 yards. i picked up the M&P, held with a natural, relaxed grip (no scrunching my head down into my shoulders or rolling my wrist up), fired 10 rounds and all hits were 4-5" low. WTF got the glock out again, all were POA/POI.

for the pics, disregard the ammo brands on the targets. that was for an ammo comparison i did a few weeks ago.

ps -when we shoot glocks and other brand s on the same day--we shoot glock first due to the pistol grip angle-- if you shoot a standard pistol first--it messes up the glock performance-- by shooting the glock fist-- we adjust faster to the different grip angle-- and shoot better-- hope this helps