motosapiens Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Are youze guys talking IDPA rules or USPSA rules? dunno. which forum are we in? the idpa rules have probably changed since this thread started anyway, due to popular outrage and demonstrations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Sarge I see a safety area as an ideal place, assuming there is a suitable back stop, to analyze the situation. I remember one gun that had the lugs broken off the barrel. I had to hand carry it to Cylinder and Slide shop, who was on site, to cut the slide stop pin and get the gun apart. On another gun I did not have a gunsmith that could solve the problem. I decided to secure the gun in the trunk of the shooters car which solved my immediate problem. When in the safety area only I handle the gun. The shooter is out of the picture until some final disposition of the gun is made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I hear you Gary but Safety area and loaded gun in the same sentence seems like a bad idea. I would think an empty bay would be better. Not saying anybody is wrong and I certainly wouldn't second guess "most" RM's but it just seems so contradictory to USPSA safe practices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I understand but RO types are empowered to do some things others are not. An example is we can pick up a dropped gun, loaded or unloaded, when others can't. If another area was available that allowed perhaps a table for tools and suitable backstops that would be great, but often that is not the case. You know that is why we get the big bucks to improvise, adapt, and overcome:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 If the safety area is the safest place to do the work then use it. If not move a table or bench into an appropriate location. Safety trumps the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louu Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Are youze guys talking IDPA rules or USPSA rules? dunno. which forum are we in? the idpa rules have probably changed since this thread started anyway, due to popular outrage and demonstrations. Was on phone and didn't see it, sorry. Edited January 7, 2015 by louu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWord Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Good catch, there were probably still rounds in the cylinder. Going to have to make it safe in the bay. Jim Absolutely. With a revolver, you have to push the bullet back into the cylinder to allow the crane to swing open. This has to be done on the line per 5.7.5 The nice thing is since the cylinder could not turn, you know the round in the chamber is spent. On an auto once you are sure the firearm is clear you can have the competitor go to the safety area, but not with a revolver; you or another RO is going to have to push it back. The competitor is not entitled to a reshoot per 5.7.4. Jay In my opinion there is no safe way for a competitor to clear a squib under the clock. It is just too easy to sweep yourself trying to get the squib rod into place assuming of course you carry one in your back pocket. My brass ones end up making holes and falling out. That is why I no longer carry it on my person, but keep in my range bag or RO bag. J Jay, what about a long zip tie inserted through the chamber end of an auto? Shooter clears the gun on the clock, whips out the zip tie and inserts it through the open breech/chamber, sees the other end come out of the muzzle, withdraws it and loads and continues? What's unsafe about that? Then he did not have a squib, the bullet is not in the barrel. Of course, he would have been stopped by the RO because of the "pop" and if it turned out there was not a bullet in the barrel, under 5.7.7.2 he gets a reshoot. I'm a little worried about a normal shooter who is carrying a squib tester in this back pocket. We had a shooter at Area 5 a number of years ago who tried to pound out a squib with a cleaning rod in his back pocket, he swept himself and was DQ'ed. Turns out he had 2 previous squibs at the club match the week before so he was "prepared". This is far afield from the locked up revolver question. Jay Edited January 7, 2015 by JayWord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Good catch, there were probably still rounds in the cylinder. Going to have to make it safe in the bay. Jim Absolutely. With a revolver, you have to push the bullet back into the cylinder to allow the crane to swing open. This has to be done on the line per 5.7.5 The nice thing is since the cylinder could not turn, you know the round in the chamber is spent. On an auto once you are sure the firearm is clear you can have the competitor go to the safety area, but not with a revolver; you or another RO is going to have to push it back. The competitor is not entitled to a reshoot per 5.7.4. Jay In my opinion there is no safe way for a competitor to clear a squib under the clock. It is just too easy to sweep yourself trying to get the squib rod into place assuming of course you carry one in your back pocket. My brass ones end up making holes and falling out. That is why I no longer carry it on my person, but keep in my range bag or RO bag. J Jay, what about a long zip tie inserted through the chamber end of an auto? Shooter clears the gun on the clock, whips out the zip tie and inserts it through the open breech/chamber, sees the other end come out of the muzzle, withdraws it and loads and continues? What's unsafe about that? Then he did not have a squib, the bullet is not in the barrel. Of course, he would have been stopped by the RO because of the "pop" and if it turned out there was not a bullet in the barrel, under 5.7.7.2 he gets a reshoot. I'm a little worried about a normal shooter who is carrying a squib tester in this back pocket. We had a shooter at Area 5 a number of years ago who tried to pound out a squib with a cleaning rod in his back pocket, he swept himself and was DQ'ed. Turns out he had 2 previous squibs at the club match the week before so he was "prepared". This is far afield from the locked up revolver question. Jay And it definitely reinforced that no good can come from posting at 2 a.m. I totally glossed over the word "clear" and substituted "check for"...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Good catch, there were probably still rounds in the cylinder. Going to have to make it safe in the bay. Jim Absolutely. With a revolver, you have to push the bullet back into the cylinder to allow the crane to swing open. This has to be done on the line per 5.7.5 The nice thing is since the cylinder could not turn, you know the round in the chamber is spent. On an auto once you are sure the firearm is clear you can have the competitor go to the safety area, but not with a revolver; you or another RO is going to have to push it back. The competitor is not entitled to a reshoot per 5.7.4. Jay In my opinion there is no safe way for a competitor to clear a squib under the clock. It is just too easy to sweep yourself trying to get the squib rod into place assuming of course you carry one in your back pocket. My brass ones end up making holes and falling out. That is why I no longer carry it on my person, but keep in my range bag or RO bag. J Disagree with unloading at the line because under an RO's specific instruction you can proceed to the safety area per 10.5.13 5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13). 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. 2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances (see Rule 10.5.12). 10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1. Still don't agree. The way I see it is that rule 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer over rides all other rules. Otherwise why even have this rule? It is specifically for the kind of issue. That is my opinion, but to be sure, I have emailed Troy McManus with this question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Still don't agree. The way I see it is that rule 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer over rides all other rules. Otherwise why even have this rule? It is specifically for the kind of issue. That is my opinion, but to be sure, I have emailed Troy McManus with this question. Make sure to update when you get a response this seems like a far fetched situation but still an every match possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Gary and Jay are spot on with their decisions regarding this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Gary and Jay are spot on with their decisions regarding this situation. Ok, so clear the squib on the stage? Or take the gun to a designated safe area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron169 Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Since someone brought this thread back, I will say this, I've read the rules and see that he shouldn't have gotten a reshoot. That being said, he was only shooter in revolver division and it was a classifier match, so no effect on other shooters as far as placement go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Gary and Jay are spot on with their decisions regarding this situation. Ok, so clear the squib on the stage? Or take the gun to a designated safe area? Clear the squib on the stage if you can do so safely and reasonably. If not, escort the gun under RO supervision to an appropriate place where the squib can be cleared safely. That might be a 'safe area' if no other appropriate place (such as an unused shooting bay) is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 If possible clear it on the stage. In this case it should have been able to be cleared. On the stage. If not possible I would deactivate the gun which we have done on the line. By deactivate I mean remove the firing pin/striker If possible let someone knowledgeable about the gun look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 If possible clear it on the stage. In this case it should have been able to be cleared. On the stage. If not possible I would deactivate the gun which we have done on the line. By deactivate I mean remove the firing pin/striker If possible let someone knowledgeable about the gun look at it. Why would that be done for only a bullet stuck in the bore. There is no cartridge in the chamber after all so there is nothing for a firing pin to hit. I just take the gun off the line once verified as most of these can take some time and work to get out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 If it's locked up and and loaded with a live round in the pipe and can't be cleared on the line it's safer to just deactivate if possible especially on an auto before trying to pound a live round out For a squib only it's fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I've had a significant number of shooters who for whatever reason were not able to eject the chambered cartridge after I gave the UASC command. Most times, after taking control of the gun I've been able to complete the action for them (brute force and ignorance are especially useful, as they are in most of life's challenges ). When I couldn't eject the round and a bore blockage wasn't indicated, I made sure the competitor's time had been recorded, and then...fired the chambered round into the back berm. It's a simple and efficient solution. When a squid does exist I have no problem with releasing the firearm from the line once it's certain that no live cartridge is present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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