What has happened to Remington?

[ghost21]

I was talking to my supervisor before thanksgiving and he was telling me about A friend of his that had been laid-off from Remington Arms Company in NY .

Now I have learned that Remington Is right at $1 B in debt. What is happening to the gun manufacturing companies ?

Marlin is now owned by some corporation, (quality has gone down) Remington is owned by some corporation (quality has gone down) Now Learning that Remington is in a deep hole that looks like they wont get out of. We all know about the crap-ola going on with Colt manufacturing. (quality in the can) I know that all of the gun companies are trying to get the product out the door, But some of the quality is not there!

I guess I'm just nit-picking, But When an American icon like Remington is on the edge of going under(which I know they probably wont) Something is wrong !

I know I will probably get flamed for this But lets hear what all of you think.

As a side note, I did also hear that a group of investors had made an offer to buy Remington for $800 to $900 k. So maybe if they wait it out and things get bad enough, They may wind-up getting control of Remington and bringing it back just like Harley Davidson did after AMF had control of them!

Then maybe we will start seeing Remington rifles ,that don't have sloppy bolts!

Jeff

[ron169]

I know Remington is building a new plant in Alabama. Winner if that has anything to do with debt or the lay off?

[ron169]

http://www.al.com/business/index.ssf/2014/02/alabamas_incentive_offer_to_re.html

[Steve RA]

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article/92599/remington-plans-32-million-expansion-for-lonoke-ammunition-plant

[bountyhunter]

I was talking to my supervisor before thanksgiving and he was telling me about A friend of his that had been laid-off from Remington Arms Company in NY .

Now I have learned that Remington Is right at $1 B in debt. What is happening to the gun manufacturing companies ?

Marlin is now owned by some corporation, (quality has gone down) Remington is owned by some corporation (quality has gone down) Now Learning that Remington is in a deep hole that looks like they wont get out of. We all know about the crap-ola going on with Colt manufacturing. (quality in the can) I know that all of the gun companies are trying to get the product out the door, But some of the quality is not there!

I guess I'm just nit-picking,

You're not nit picking and Remington is certainly not the only gun maker shipping junk. Smith Wesson has been doing it for a number of years now. The truth is, gun makers have enjoyed a strong upsurge in sales from the "tailwind" provided by the national panic that ensued after the last presidential election when all the fear mongers started screaming that guns were going to be outlawed and even collected. A lot of that is still going on and gun supplies (and ammo) have dried up but gun makers have also enjoyed major sales increases. How Remington managed to sail with those following seas and still go into major debt is probably the usual story: idiots in management.

Well, I called it:

In 2007, Remington was acquired by private investment firm Cerebus Capital Management.

And then a panic sell:

In Unusual Move, Cerberus to Sell Gun Company

Sitting in their offices high above Park Avenue late on Monday, the private equity executives who own the country’s largest gun company received a phone call from one of their most influential investors.///

“It is apparent that the Sandy Hook tragedy was a watershed event that has raised the national debate on gun control to an unprecedented level,” Cerberus said in a statement.

The move by Cerberus is a rare instance of a Wall Street firm bending to concerns about an investment’s societal impact rather than a profit-at-all-costs ethos. Public pension funds like the California one — officially, the California State Teachers’ Retirement System, or Calstrs — have hundreds of billions of dollars in private equity and hedge fund investments. While their influence is vast, it is usually exerted behind the scenes and rarely prompts snap business decisions.

Edited December 28, 2014 by bountyhunter

[Dranoel]

This is the sort of thing that happens when you take a company public and start selling stocks and end up with a board of directors who don't even have a clue what you build let alone care about a quality product. I have been through this with my guitar building operation and it destroyed me financially. My accountant convinced me to take investors and sell stocks to "Grow" my company. Next thing I know I have 7 people telling me to skimp on materials and buy machinery to pump out 100 cheap-shit guitars a week and not a single one of them them even knew how to PLAY a guitar, let alone build one. My shop is now gone. All my equipment is now gone. I cannot put my own name on a guitar I build myself. That name is owned by a bunch of dipshits who import cheap crap from Taiwan and put my name on it.

Same thing happens with gun companies and a LOT of other businesses. A board of directors hires some guy to come in and determine where you should cut corners so the Board has a larger profit margin. Your quality, that you built a reputation on, goes in the shit can and 5 years later you're bankrupt because the returns cost you more than you made. But the Board made some money or at least got a tax write-off so they're happy and don't give a rodent's rectum about your reputation, your product, your good name or anything else. They're busy doing it to the next guy.

[TonytheTiger]

^ Bravo, well said sir!

[Adam B]

Remington has never made great guns, they have made ok guns. There is a reason so many gunsmiths make a living blueprinting Remington 700 actions. If they were so great to start out with there would be no need to blueprint them.

[TonytheTiger]

I was always under the impression that the 700 was the gold standard for a factory bolt action. Then one day I saw a Tikka...

[MarkCO]

Most Americans, as well as firearms "enthusiasts" buy the cheap stuff instead of buying quality. The $ encourages people in this industry to copy and knock stuff off at an alarming rate, then some guy or gal gets on YouTube and says how great it is and whamo, it sells. Cheap crap usually has higher profit margins as well. While I will not go into details, I was very disappointed in Remington's implementation of the design input I gave them on the VersaMax competition, as was the design engineer I worked with. On one part, it was literally pennies that kept the part from being made right...bean counters rule the roost I guess. In my experience, it does appear that price and marketing have a bigger influence than sound engineering, design, production and quality when it comes to the vast majority of consumer products, including firearms.

[JimmyZip]

Most Americans, as well as firearms "enthusiasts" buy the cheap stuff instead of buying quality. The $ encourages people in this industry to copy and knock stuff off at an alarming rate, then some guy or gal gets on YouTube and says how great it is and whamo, it sells. Cheap crap usually has higher profit margins as well. While I will not go into details, I was very disappointed in Remington's implementation of the design input I gave them on the VersaMax competition, as was the design engineer I worked with. On one part, it was literally pennies that kept the part from being made right...bean counters rule the roost I guess. In my experience, it does appear that price and marketing have a bigger influence than sound engineering, design, production and quality when it comes to the vast majority of consumer products, including firearms.

I so wish that this was just b.s. Don't think it is though. Not at all.

[tomfturner]

Remington is bringing production operations to Huntsville, AL (more gun-friendly climate), and as I understand it they are moving production of their other products here as well (at least some of the other products). They may be "blowing sunshine through the tail-feathers" of everyone involved, but all the talk from the management and employees that are in town is that they are modernizing a lot of processes to the improvement of products. Time will tell, but from what I have seen and heard they have a lot of "lessons learned" to work from with the "bobbled" transition of Marlin. The other thing that I've heard that SHOULD come from the move is that new equipment is easier to install than to replace/refurbish old equipment, which again leads to a more efficient production with a higher quality product.

Again this may all be "sunshine and rainbows", but I do know that they are intending to be here for the long haul. I'm skeptically hopeful to see what they are going to do. Just my $.02.

[MarkCO]

Oh I am sure they are moving operations, but there will be bumps in the road. Over the last few months there has been a LOT of machinery and tooling from Big Green showing up on auction sites and used equipment sellers websites. But these politically driven moves are not necessarily the cheapest nor do they occur at the most opportune times. I sincerely hope they make it through and actually improve quality within the moves.

[Graham Smith]

Remington has never made great guns, they have made ok guns. There is a reason so many gunsmiths make a living blueprinting Remington 700 actions. If they were so great to start out with there would be no need to blueprint them.

Any gun maker has to balance the cost to make vs the sale price and determine what their primary market is. The Remington 700 action is popular because it is reasonably well made and reasonably priced.

Remington could certainly up the standards but then they would have to up the price as well. I could shoot an MOA group with my 700 SPS right out of the box. That's not bad for a sub $1000 factory rifle.

[bountyhunter]

Remington is bringing production operations to Huntsville, AL (more gun-friendly climate), and as I understand it they are moving production of their other products here as well (at least some of the other products). They may be "blowing sunshine through the tail-feathers" of everyone involved, but all the talk from the management and employees that are in town is that they are modernizing a lot of processes to the improvement of products.

That's what they told us MIM was going to do...... LOL

Edited December 30, 2014 by bountyhunter

[Vlad]

I never really understood why people thought Remington made good guns. I even own one and my wife owns two, and my general feeling is that they are "ok for the money" guns.

I have a suspicion though, I think we are living in the golden age of firearm manufacturing and we are looking backwards forgetting the past issues. It used to be if you wanted a 1911 you bought one and then sent to be worked on to make it reliable. If you wanted an accurate rifle, you bought a 700 and sent it out to be stripped and rebuilt. Today you can buy $700 1911's that run all day and sub MOA bolt action rifles that cost $500. We buy a $500 plastic handgun and expect it ro run 100% for 10k rounds while maybe storing it in the same room with and empty bottle of gun oil. My guess is that our expectations have risen dramatically but that a lot of manufacturers have not. I don't think Remington got a lot worse, I think the stayed how they were while the world moved forward. Alternatively, to keep prices down and compete they've had to cut corners, but really reading old gun magazines leads to believe they've always sucked some.

[LincolnOsiris]

are the new York plant workers unionized? I dont think Alabama and Arkansas are. that is one big way to cut costs.

[z40acp]

New York. Today we don't even want a shotgun that just holds 7.

[cas]

Remington made great guns, it was just a long time ago. Then they did like so many other companies did as the decades went on, they started making them cheaper and cheaper until you get crap. They went the cheaper route. Then the even cheaper route. Then they went the junk route, the "lets import even worse junk" route, each one doing more and more damage to the brand until you're where we are now, where no one other than brand new gun owners who don't know any better will buy them.

(We saw that with most american gun companies. Post WW2 quality while good, never matched up to pre-war. Then the redesigned cheaper to make versions that came in the 60's, were dumped and replaced with other models in the 70s. Then the down hill roll really picked up speed.)

Yes they are Union workers in NY, but I can't blame them. (Believe me, I'm FAR from pro Union.) New York state is just toxic for any business, period. The union demands aren't unrealistic or out of line, it's just trying to allow its members to get by with the high cost of living In NY, again, blame the state. I'm sad to see them go after such a long history in NY, but it's probably the best thing they could ever do. Though personally I think the damage is done, the brand is destroyed, as is evident by the responses in this thread.

[SonOfSpartans]

Most Americans, as well as firearms "enthusiasts" buy the cheap stuff instead of buying quality. The $ encourages people in this industry to copy and knock stuff off at an alarming rate, then some guy or gal gets on YouTube and says how great it is and whamo, it sells. Cheap crap usually has higher profit margins as well. While I will not go into details, I was very disappointed in Remington's implementation of the design input I gave them on the VersaMax competition, as was the design engineer I worked with. On one part, it was literally pennies that kept the part from being made right...bean counters rule the roost I guess. In my experience, it does appear that price and marketing have a bigger influence than sound engineering, design, production and quality when it comes to the vast majority of consumer products, including firearms.

I was wondering when this would come up. What is purchased drives what is made. Slick ads can drive demand for some time.

We complain about quality but buy on price. Many buyers may never use a product to its failure point, so they post glowing reviews. To them it is fine....

This is not just the gun business. It is everything.

I used to have business cards that said things like 'I fix $79 brake jobs' and 'Free check engine light diagnostics? Worth every penny' to see who noticed.

A little more Deming would go a long way. IMO.