One-Hit Neutralization For Major PF?

[AFH]

Interesting topic. Stealthy and JJ bring up good points. Some I agree with and other strongly disagree with.

Stealthy was right about why this is brought up occasionally. Heavy Metal has the least participation of any division, and brings up the most griping and complaining of any division (primarily on these forums and about rules). The 7 year average of participation by division for the BRM3G is: HM = 3.6%, TI = 7.2%, OP = 10.1%, TO = 79.1%. Having arrived at some the same conclusions as Stealthy and Mark, I am considering moving the HM division into TI scores and prizes, and acknowledging the HM winner. To paraphrase JJ, if you want to compete in HM, step up and accept the challenge and don't whine about it. Also, several matches do not follow the 1A, 2 anywhere mentality, and require 2 scored hits; so shooting one A would result in penalties.

I COMPLETELY agree with JJ's assessment of the style of 3-gun some people and organizations are pushing. The Hard-as-Hell 3-Gun was great to shoot, was inspirational for my stage designing next year, and requiring skills beyond shooting fast. Watch the videos! RM3G, TFD3G, BRM3G, Ft. Benning 3-Gun, the MGM Ironman, and given their space limitations the Mid-West 3-Gun, all bring/brought a few extra challenges to their matches. I'm sure I forgot someone in that list, so I'll go ahead and apologize for the omissions. In my opinion, there should be more to 3-gun competition than just shooting fast. However, there is room for all types of matches in 3-gun. Each style will have its fans and following. Neither is the absolute right way to set up a 3-gun match. BUT, you can incorporate the speed shoots into longer, more widely technical stages.

Requiring only one rifle hit from a HM shooter and two from a shooter in another division/class skews the results heavily toward the HM shooter. I've shot matches scored that way, and, IMHO it was a disastrous way to score. Combining the division with TO or TI and scoring everyone the same would create the fewest problems. Mark's divisions have a lot of merit, and are something I could support. The pump shotgun only in Stock (essentially TI) would create some discussion and maybe some ill will, but might be doable.

Measuring power factor in 3-gun is a non-starter. Having been to very few USPSA multigun or pistol matches, I have plenty of, well, let's call it "questionable" tactics to make sure the "correct" ammo was submitted for testing at the pistol matches. This is a headache that is not needed in this sport, especially on a random basis. If done, either test everyone or no one.

An observation: We should also be able to make our points without disparaging anyone's choice of division and weapons, especially considering the preponderance of .223 and 9mm used by military units world wide.

The changes in the 3-gun over the last few years, primarily in the number of matches and the style of some of them, have brought both good things and bad things to our sport. Hopefully, the good will outweigh the bad, 3-gun will grow as a sport, the great majority of the people who come into 3-gun will be people of good character, and we can eventually figure out what to do with Heavy Metal!!

Andy

[kurtm]

Stealthy, the original He-Man was never thought to be a "scoped" division, nor was that a direction we were going to take it. As EricM stated it was an iron sighted 308 or bigger, a 12 Gage shotgun, and a 44 manual revolver or ANY 45 ACP holding 10 rounds or less.

Now with that said Eddie liked scopes, and at first he pushed for them, but we didn't want it to turn into an AR-10 only division (there is no good way to scope a a M-14 or FAL). It was decided, even by Eddie that iron was the way to go. The division was designed for the guy who was issued serious gear a place to compete.

[StealthyBlagga]

Stealthy, the original He-Man was never thought to be a "scoped" division, nor was that a direction we were going to take it. As EricM stated it was an iron sighted 308 or bigger, a 12 Gage shotgun, and a 44 manual revolver or ANY 45 ACP holding 10 rounds or less.

Now with that said Eddie liked scopes, and at first he pushed for them, but we didn't want it to turn into an AR-10 only division (there is no good way to scope a a M-14 or FAL). It was decided, even by Eddie that iron was the way to go. The division was designed for the guy who was issued serious gear a place to compete.

Apologies - I misunderstood the earlier posts.

If we were to consolidate HMS and HML into a single division, what would folks want it to look like? Like HMS to maximize participation, or like HML to stay pure (and let the guys with scopes roll the dice in Tac Scope), or something of a hybrid of the two?

[P.E. Kelley]

Those scoring concessions for Heavy have been in play all year in the 3GN Regional and Club series with little participation in the Club side and never enough to recognize either heavy division in the Regionals.

I ran some ideas by PK and we came up with a very interesting way to have both Heavy divisions combined for score. Mechanical vs Capacity advantages.

We will also debut a new stock division as well as some PCC divisions for clubs that don't have permission for center fire rifle cartridges in their pistol ranges. New .22 divisions for the new and younger 3 gunners and updates on familiar divisions for the 3GN Nationals.

The new Regional rules will be completed and available in the next 2 weeks.

Rob

THIS^^^ Is going to be very cool! I may have to come out of HM retirement to play!!!

[P.E. Kelley]

And old post from the Man Himself >Eddie<

In 2003 a couple of major matches instituted a class called "He-Man" wherein competitors ran .308 rifles and .45 calibre pistols sans optics. The class was popular at those venues and has prompted matches in 2004 to begin their own "He-Man" class. I think "He-Man" as instituted has gone off track! I want the competitors, match directors and sponsors who participate in this forum to reconsider what "He-Man" should be.

"He-Man" is not about using specialized firearms and ammunition developed for competition, even though some of those specialized competitive items are very suited to particular situational needs. "He-Man" is not about a call to arms for "Tactical Teds" or patrol car "operators" from where they can pontificate about their expected daring-do. "He-Man" is all about shooting large, standard calibre, proven, powerful firearms that have a probable, potentially wide use in law enforcement, the military and civilian self-defense. "Proven, probable, potentially wide use" refers to firearms the aforementioned users will likely have available in the event of a sudden need, i.e. pistols carried concealed or in a duty rig; rifles and shotguns likely to be available for premise defense, building entry or carried in a vehicle for rapid deployment.

A "He-Man Rifle" is a semi-auto in at least .308 Winchester, with no more than a 20 round box magazine, with iron sights or one optic, no bipod, fitted with a sling or carrying strap, a compensator or flashhider configured in proportion to the profile of the barrel, a stock that allows for ambidextrous use, and firing full powered ammunition. A "He-Man Pistol" is at least a .45acp with a barrel no longer than 5.5", limited to a 10 round capacity, no optics, no compensators, and firing full powered ammunition. A "He-Man Shotgun" is a 12 gauge, pump or semi-auto, with a barrel/magazine tube no longer than 22", fitted with a carrying strap, no optics, no bipods, no loading tubes, no compensators or porting, and firing buckshot and slugs only.

A large 3-gun match with a properly configured "He-Man" class in addition to Open and Tactical class will offer about all there is to dedicated 3-gunners. The importance, however, of a properly configured "He-Man" is that it will allow those shooters with a more tactical or professional bent not only a forum in which to compete, but a forum to develop some equipment and techniques readily transferable to wide practical applications. Using the term "wide practical applications" is in no way a slight to anyone or any piece of equipment. It does not mean an Open class competitor wielding a scoped, high capacity, .38 SuperComp out of a skeletonized holster does not have the means or the sand to defend himself or others. It does mean that the chances of that equipment seeing widespread adoption by those employed to enforce laws or defend the country will not happen in the next couple of years. The term "wide practical applications" does not mean a .308 rifle should be limited to iron sights or a 12 gauge shotgun should be limited to a pump action allowed to shoot 2 3/4 dram #8 birdshot. Scopes on rifles are common sense. Semi-auto shotguns are proven and widely accepted, and, shotguns for this purpose only make sense firing buckshot and slugs. "He-Man" should be all about learning to use practical, widely available, and powerful firearms in the best school of all, modern 3-gun competition.

[MarkCO]

Based on Eddie's 2003 post, there is not a single match in the country that runs true "He-Man" then.

[Sterling White]

Over the past 10 or so years the evolution of the service rifle has changed. Current AR manufacturers are building shorter more reliable 308's that are in the hands of mil and leo's. Eddies message about ammo and platforms is pretty loud and clear however I'm not sure that it applies to norm today. Question is...will MD's stay true to the intent?

[Flash74]

Your poll is skewed. The only no answer is "unmanly" which obviously does not go along with your opinion. This is just like pollers skewing the questions to get the answer they want. Pretty pointless, you only want answers that agree with your opinion.

This is a game. The rules for the game dictate the number of rounds on the target. If you dont like the rules, then don't play the game. You can do one shot on a target if you are accurate. If you want to hose, then dont shoot HM.

If major PF became a rule and only one hit on a target became a rule, then a PF number would have to be established and enforced. Everyone with half a brain would game it just to make PF. There would be high cap 40's in every holster, rifles that shoot a 6.5 or 6.8 projectiles that justs make PF. Can you say equipment race? If the power factor numbers are kept really high where only a 45 and 308 would qualify, then I think you would see the same participation as yhere currently is.

[Stlhead]

I do not wish to BBQ the sacred cow, but the original logic behind HM was flawed. I enjoy HM for what it is, but practical it is not. The reason that people don't shoot HM is not the cost, it is that it is harder plain and simple. Every man deep in his heart has to think that he is a porn star, professional athlete, and a fighter pilot. Everyone wants to place as high as they can in the combined overall scoring race and most will pick the division that they can reasonably do the best in. How many people that have access to a full open kit shoot limited? I would bet not many. There will always be those few guys that will shoot what they want for their own reasons, but the vast majority of shooters will just shoot where they think they will do the best in, they don't have open shotguns or pistols in most cases so they shoot in tac optics. If there where 5 guys in HM at every match I shot at and some of those 5 where stiff completion then I would shoot my heavy gear at every match, unfortunately that is not the case so I just don't see any future in the division as it is now or even how it was originally envisioned. Even with a by percentage in division single prize table there where not enough Heavy shooters at the only close major I went to last year that offered it to recognize the division. If the rules are changed to give the big bores a competitive advantage over the small bores then people will be forced to buy or use different guns, but what does it really do? It won't make people want to shoot HM it will just change tac optics into an amalgamation. Look at what happened to USPSA revolver. In an effort to garner more shooters by allowing 8 shot minor pf guns they made the 6 shot major revolvers obsolete, no new shooters joined, and and many now have to buy new guns in order to be competitive. There are no easy answers to the HM question.

[LSnSC]

I shot Heavy Irons this weekend, and was the only one out of 75 shooters. I thought a couple of others would be there but they backed out for whatever reason. I shoot it because I like it. The same reason i bowhunt with a recurve. Same reason I shoot irons in TI. Success is sweeter.

Leave the damn division alone and let the handfull that shoot it enjoy the simplicity of an iron sighted rifle, pump shotgun, and 45ACP. We're not there for the prize table. FWIW I beat all of the TI guys. I hit steel with irons out to 400, rotated a spinner with a single stack, and held my own against the the autos with a pump. All with full powered ammo. It can be done. No need to dumb down HM.

There are more than enough shooters in the other divisions to fill the match and keep the sponsors happy.

If there arent enough HM shooters at the match to make a seperate division, put us in TI / Limited and recognize high HM shooter.

Any 3GN rule changes for regionals are a day late and dollar short. Registration is full and not a HM shooter in the bunch.

Edited December 18, 2014 by LSnSC

[LSnSC]

The Stock division is a great idea and one Ive thought of implementing in our matches, because thats the gear 90% of new shooters show up with. A guy can get in the sport and have a place to play without buying alot of specialized gear. I believe thats why IDPA is successful despite some odd rules. A guy can compete with a minimal investment.

Edited December 18, 2014 by LSnSC

[co-exprs]

I do not wish to BBQ the sacred cow, but the original logic behind HM was flawed. I enjoy HM for what it is, but practical it is not. The reason that people don't shoot HM is not the cost, it is that it is harder plain and simple. Every man deep in his heart has to think that he is a porn star, professional athlete, and a fighter pilot. Everyone wants to place as high as they can in the combined overall scoring race and most will pick the division that they can reasonably do the best in. How many people that have access to a full open kit shoot limited? I would bet not many. There will always be those few guys that will shoot what they want for their own reasons, but the vast majority of shooters will just shoot where they think they will do the best in, they don't have open shotguns or pistols in most cases so they shoot in tac optics. If there where 5 guys in HM at every match I shot at and some of those 5 where stiff completion then I would shoot my heavy gear at every match, unfortunately that is not the case so I just don't see any future in the division as it is now or even how it was originally envisioned. Even with a by percentage in division single prize table there where not enough Heavy shooters at the only close major I went to last year that offered it to recognize the division. If the rules are changed to give the big bores a competitive advantage over the small bores then people will be forced to buy or use different guns, but what does it really do? It won't make people want to shoot HM it will just change tac optics into an amalgamation. Look at what happened to USPSA revolver. In an effort to garner more shooters by allowing 8 shot minor pf guns they made the 6 shot major revolvers obsolete, no new shooters joined, and and many now have to buy new guns in order to be competitive. There are no easy answers to the HM question.

+1 Techinical challenges and limits on capacity simply aren't the American way any more. People want to be hot rod fast right now.

Hoaky religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good scope on top of your tricked out AR15.

Edited December 18, 2014 by co-exprs

[Stlhead]

+1 Techinical challenges and limits on capacity simply aren't the American way any more. People want to be hot rod fast right now.

Hoaky religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good scope on top of your tricked out AR15.

A Han Solo reference? Well played indeed Sir!

[Flash74]

+1 Techinical challenges and limits on capacity simply aren't the American way any more. People want to be hot rod fast right now.

Hoaky religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good scope on top of your tricked out AR15.

A Han Solo reference? Well played indeed Sir!

I never would of caught that in a million years, good job.

[gose]

Requiring only one rifle hit from a HM shooter and two from a shooter in another division/class skews the results heavily toward the HM shooter. I've shot matches scored that way, and, IMHO it was a disastrous way to score. Combining the division with TO or TI and scoring everyone the same would create the fewest problems. Mark's divisions have a lot of merit, and are something I could support. The pump shotgun only in Stock (essentially TI) would create some discussion and maybe some ill will, but might be doable.

I agree with Andy here. We've also tried this and one anywhere, even with a full 308s, is much faster than two anywhere with a .223. You'd have to have a lot more steel than paper targets for .223 to even come close.

[Bentsight]

Three area clubs are using the 1hit rule and a fourth is considering it for the coming season. Participation has grown in HM because of it and whatever perceived advantages seem far outweighed by the advantage semi's have over the pump guns.

[gunther]

Seems like there is two paths

1st stay true to the old style

2nd go with what brings competitors out to play.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[P.E. Kelley]

How about just within HM one hit for rifle and pistol?

How about after that....we make HM one SCORED division with two classes of equipment.

HM Optics 20/308 Rifle 10/45 Pistol and 8+1 Auto Shotguns (12 bore)

HM Iron (1x) No mag capacity restriction/308 Rifle 140MM mag length max/45 Pistol 8+1(at start) Pump (12 bore)

[Benelli Chick]

How about just within HM one hit for rifle and pistol?

How about after that....we make HM one SCORED division with two classes of equipment.

HM Optics 20/308 Rifle 10/45 Pistol and 8+1 Auto Shotguns (12 bore)

HM Iron (1x) No mag capacity restriction/308 Rifle 140MM mag length max/45 Pistol 8+1(at start) Pump (12 bore)

We both really thought about this idea, but when we asked some of our shooters that still shoot He-Man, they basically said it wouldn't even them up enough. They wanted to keep it the same at our match! But, we get a decent number of He-Man shooters already at RM3G! It might help other matches that don't get even 10 He-Man shooters in two divisions, let alone 1. This could keep He-Man limping along at other matches! I am interested to see how it would work out!

Denise

[co-exprs]

How about just within HM one hit for rifle and pistol?

How about after that....we make HM one SCORED division with two classes of equipment.

HM Optics 20/308 Rifle 10/45 Pistol and 8+1 Auto Shotguns (12 bore)

HM Iron (1x) No mag capacity restriction/308 Rifle 140MM mag length max/45 Pistol 8+1(at start) Pump (12 bore)

We both really thought about this idea, but when we asked some of our shooters that still shoot He-Man, they basically said it wouldn't even them up enough. They wanted to keep it the same at our match! But, we get a decent number of He-Man shooters already at RM3G! It might help other matches that don't get even 10 He-Man shooters in two divisions, let alone 1. This could keep He-Man limping along at other matches! I am interested to see how it would work out!

Denise

Snort! "Not even them up enough". Those scope dependent girly men.

Since we are only kicking the can. I would be open to combining the divisions, but since the only difference being magnification on the rifle I would think that the only difference needed would be to allow dots and larger rifle mags. With 25rd mags readily available for a few different 308 platforms a 5 round advantage (25% increase) should be enough. Those 308 drum mags are really cool and nearly $300ea. A 50rd 308 would be more fun than sex, but a significant cost variance. I wouldn't think that a difference in shotgun and pistol capacities would be necessary to "even things up".

I have given thought to the magazine capacities in general. I wouldn't be opposed to raising the limit, but going to 140mm for double stack mags would be pretty tough on the 1911 SS platform and at least half the HM I see at matches run 1911 single stacks. A high cap 45 sure would be wicked fun though. Just throwing this out there, but I would consider keeping pistol mags capacity limited to 14 as that would include all of the capacities of the most common 45's on the market today without leaving the single stackers scrambling to buy new guns. On the upside though, that new G41 is a really good shooting pistol and relatively cost effective so even the 140mm mag thing wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Edited December 20, 2014 by co-exprs

[dillon]

I see two purposes in this thread. One is to come up with a way to increase participation in Heavy Metal/He-Man divisions. The other is to combine the less popular divisions to reduce the number of prize tables. At RM3G, all categories are recognized and awarded, then everyone walks one prize table, with your position based on where you rank in your division percentage-wise. While as a shooter I prefer separate tables, I completely understand this is a pain in the backside from an administrative perspective.

[Alaskapopo]

Leave things alone. Its too much of an advantage to only allow 1 hit to neutralize then you would have to shoot major to be competitive.

Pat

[MickB]

^^^^^

Sorta like USPSA Limited?

:-)

Mick

[Bryan 45]

I really thought I had given my thoughts on this subject, it's not appearing in this thread though. Since I haven't been participating in much heavy for the last couple of years, I'm feeling a little guilty about voicing my opinion. I still shoot it occasionally at local matches though.

I find myself agreeing with Kelly Neals comment- "Single hit anywhere? Now that's encouraging good shooting. I'm ok with a major pf rifle (not pistol) neutralizing a target with an A, B or C hit as I think that reflects reality but certainly not D hits."

The more I see this sport deviate from it's roots and the PRACTICAL use of our tools, the less interested I become in gaming/scoring/fairness and all the other stuff associated with the competitive aspects of it. A Delta is not something to be rewarded with "pass go and collect $200." A Delta is almost a miss.

[kurtm]

Well Gawd Dam Bryan Ray! Too bad I came out hetero last year or I'd ask you to go out!..... DAMN RIGHT!!!!