Rumor has it

[BillR1]

Email from Robert Ray on the situation...

"Chris,

I understand your frustration. However, please consider redirecting that towards the GADPA. Although they may have advertised the match as a Tier 4, they at no time spoke with HQ about achieving that level. It never appeared on IDPA’s website as Tier 4 match. The club failed to send the stages to HQ for review per the rulebook requirements for a Tier 4 match. Had they done so it is most likely we could have advised them that the open squadding (in a tier 4 match) and several other easily correctable issues were against the rulebook. I was unaware that they even had open squadding until after the match was listed as a Tier 3.

Basically, this club failed to follow a number of simple IDPA rules. None of which even came close to falling in a “gray” area. The number one complaint from members is clubs/matches not following the rules. This club failed to do so on multiple levels and when faced with the consequences of those action decided to quit rather than take any responsibility of them.

Robert Ray
International Defensive Pistol Association
2232 County Road 719
Berryville, AR 72616
robert@idpa.com"

Edited October 29, 2014 by BillR1

[Jim Watson]

What was the AC doing all this time? I thought that was the first step in match stage approval.

[bc361]

What was the AC doing all this time? I thought that was the first step in match stage approval.

He was shooting the match

[GOF]

BillR1... who is this "Chris" that allegedly got Robert Ray's email... and how did you get it? And, I noticed that you edited it. What did you 'edit'? We have to be careful with avowed Kool Aid drinkers, ya know

Edited October 29, 2014 by GOF

[BillR1]

BillR1... who is this "Chris" that allegedly got Robert Ray's email... and how did you get it?

I copied the letter from a thread on the IDPA forums...

http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/11588/Message-from-GADPA-Board-of-Directors#.VFE0ufnF9yx

[Steve Koski]

From: http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/11588/Message-from-GADPA-Board-of-Directors#.VFE3z2ddXHU

Just got this email from Robert Ray
Chris,

I understand your frustration. However, please consider redirecting that towards the GADPA. Although they may have advertised the match as a Tier 4, they at no time spoke with HQ about achieving that level. It never appeared on IDPA’s website as Tier 4 match. The club failed to send the stages to HQ for review per the rulebook requirements for a Tier 4 match. Had they done so it is most likely we could have advised them that the open squadding (in a tier 4 match) and several other easily correctable issues were against the rulebook. I was unaware that they even had open squadding until after the match was listed as a Tier 3.

Basically, this club failed to follow a number of simple IDPA rules. None of which even came close to falling in a “gray” area. The number one complaint from members is clubs/matches not following the rules. This club failed to do so on multiple levels and when faced with the consequences of those action decided to quit rather than take any responsibility of them.

Robert Ray

International Defensive Pistol Association

2232 County Road 719

Berryville, AR 72616

robert@idpa.com

(w)870-545-3886

(f)870-545-3894

(cell)870-350-1885


Chris Zell

[Rob Tompkins]

So GADPA didn't want to follow published and very clear rules on squadding and stage approval for the match to be a Tier 4 match and it got knocked down to a Tier 3 match?

Sounds like hurt egos to me.

Its a free market and if GADPA wants to go outlaw fine with me. They may very well see no reduction in monthly / weekly match attendance. I do suspect they will see fewer non-local shooters, especailly pro / sponsered shooters at any "big" events since there won't be a national context for the results.

[GOF]

I have to wonder how many of the MANY (upwards of maybe a thousand?) action pistol shooters within the greater Atlanta area... who paid their annual $40 IDPA membership because they were required to in order shoot IDPA GADPA, matches will renew their membership? I'm sure the small percentage of club shooters who do shoot sanctioned matches will renew. But, what about the rest, and what about new shooters? I wonder how many annual memberships IDPA lost when GADPA took Joyce's advice ... If you don't like it, leave.

It's obvious, at least to me, that IDPA's business plan does not depend upon veteran shooters staying. They have already run a lot of those (including experienced SOs) off. They seem to depend upon new shooters, and the "join by the second match" rule. What happens when the clubs take Joyce's advice and leave? Who is there to collect all those new members and convince them to send their $40 check to Berryville now that they can spend their $40 on more ammo to shoot fun matches that are not totally IDPA?

I'm certain that a "Kool Aid" drinker will respond with " Yeah... but... but... all the sanctioned matches are filling up" (except, maybe the Worlds) so things are good!" OK, about 200+ shooters for less than a few dozen sanctioned matches (some of them being the same shooters doing multiple matches) .. times that at $40 a year and see how long Berryville can pay the light bill.

If you have a business plan that depends upon clubs paying a modest annual affiliation fee, and then depend upon their volunteering their time to create dues paying members for you... which is where the income comes from...how smart is it to tell the clubs ... if you don't like it, leave.... and not expect some of the Type A personalities who make up the action pistol sports to not leave.

They don't need IDPA. IDPA needs them. Brilliant move on IDPA's part

Edited October 29, 2014 by GOF

[BillR1]

So GADPA didn't want to follow published and very clear rules on squadding and stage approval for the match to be a Tier 4 match and it got knocked down to a Tier 3 match?

Sounds like hurt egos to me.

Its a free market and if GADPA wants to go outlaw fine with me. They may very well see no reduction in monthly / weekly match attendance. I do suspect they will see fewer non-local shooters, especailly pro / sponsered shooters at any "big" events since there won't be a national context for the results.

This!

[Thomas H]

So GADPA didn't want to follow published and very clear rules on squadding and stage approval for the match to be a Tier 4 match and it got knocked down to a Tier 3 match?

Sounds like hurt egos to me.

Indeed, that makes sense. A long-time, well-populated club that has a history of creating/hosting/running large major matches for a considerable length of time decided on the spur of the moment (based on how one match got handled) to completely sever their relationship with a national organization.

I'm sure you are correct. It was all about that one match.

[GOF]

Excellent point, Thomas! And the sarcasm was artfully applied. I'm not sure if the Kool Aid drinkers will get it... but it's crystal clear to the rest of us. A "Tip 'O The Hat" Sir!

[BillR1]

A reply directly from Robert Ray...

"We regret to hear that GADPA is choosing to leave IDPA. We are not certain what their reasons are at this point, as they have not contacted us directly. We can only speculate this was because of issues regarding the GA State match this past weekend.

Earlier last week, I received several phone calls from concerned competitors about their stages and matchbook after they had been posted online. There were a couple of issues that needed to be addressed. One stage had the competitor getting up off a knee and moving to a different position and another with priority issues, both of which would have been easy fixes. There were a couple of other stages that the callers felt were illegal, but after talking with the club president I felt they were fine. It was just a matter of a 2 dimensional drawing not fully showing a 3 dimensional stage.

They also printed in their match book: “Air Gunning: No air-gunning of any type is allowed and will result in a FTDR penalty being added to the shooters score.” and “Arbitration: There will be no arbitration. The Match Director will make final decision in all matters of dispute. Video will not be used to overrule SO calls.” I ensured that they understood that air gunning was legal outside the stage boundaries (they said they did and had painted lines like at the US Nationals) and that they would have to observe the arbitration rules and for future matches they would need to remove that language from the matchbook. The president said ok. I spoke with the club president since the MD did not have a phone number listed. The club president was on the range and said that he would follow up with the MD. I believe the AC only saw the stages and not the complete match book with the squad, air gun and arbitration issues.

Fast forward to Saturday about noon. I received a call from the Area Coordinator, Claude Werner telling me that approximately 50 competitors were allowed to start shooting the match without having a valid or current classification. I told him that they would have to shoot the match for no score. The match admin should have never allowed them to start the match. Claude counters that they have already started and that maybe we could compromise on a PE that they may continue to shoot. I explain to Claude that we cannot do that as it not only sets a bad precedent but that it would effectively penalize every other competitor that followed the rules by classifying. He agreed and I offered a different solution that at least would keep the competitors in the match. Each of the competitors would receive a FTDR. The only other option would be have them all shoot for no score. Claude agreed and we spoke about other business and ended the call. The club decided to again ignore the rules and followed through with neither of the two options offered. This disregard for the rules also includes allowing at least one competitor with a lapsed membership to shoot and only renewing that membership when another competitor pointed this out.

All of these calls were polite and agreeable.

One area of speculation on their severing ties with IDPA is about their Tier level. Although they may have advertised the match as a Tier 4, they at no time spoke with HQ about achieving that level. It never appeared on IDPA’s website as Tier 4 match. The club failed to send the stages to HQ for review per the rulebook requirements for a Tier 4 match. Had they done so it we could have advised them that the open squadding (in a tier 4 match) and the several other easily correctable issues were against the rulebook

Basically, this club failed to follow a number of simple IDPA rules. None of which even came close to falling in a “gray” area. The number one complaint from members is clubs/matches not following the rules. This club failed to do so on multiple levels and when faced with the consequences of those actions decided to quit rather than take any responsibility of them.

On a personal note it is a shame that this comes after IDPA HQ bent over backwards to get several GADPA guys that were on the wait list in the US Nationals together on one squad. This includes the MD who achieved DM status in SSR."

[GOF]

Take another sip of Kool Aid. Then look at all the rules violations done/conducted/allowed by the Berryville staff at the S&W Indoor Nationals, the 2014 IDPA Nationals (chronoing a ESR gun from a G21 is laughable. Can't HQ find a 625 to drag to the NATIONALS! to make a legal chrono?) and other sanctioned matches (I saw strange stuff at the Worlds in Frostproof, back whenever that was). Now, you tell me they suddenly got rule compliant and decided to hammer GADPA? Sounds to me like the Berryville "pot" is calling the GADPA kettle "black".

I applaud GADPA's decision! Enough incompetence is enough, especially coming on top of that disaster now known as "The New Rule Book".. They can continue to run matches for their almost 1,000? members, and those members won't have to send $40 a year to Berryville. I suspect GADPA will continue to fill their many matches (indoor and out door) and will make more than enough money to continue their operations, buy new props, targets, pasters, etc.

The loser is Berryville. They won't get all those $40 a year checks. And, the vast majority of those shooters just want to shoot a pistol match every week or so. They don't care about shooting sanctioned matches, and don't care to have to shoot the boring Classifier each year. Now, they don't have to and they have an extra $40 in their pocket with absolutely no discomfort to them.

IDPA has a GREAT business plan! Yessiree! And, "If you don't like it, don't let the door hit you in the $$$ on the way out". This whole current IDPA leadership thing reminds me of Obamacare.

[v1911]

GOF,

Do you ever have any constructive to add to any thread? You seem to spout a lot of hate for an organization that you no longer contribute to but can't seem to resist trolling IDPA threads. Reviewing previous posts from a variety of thread reveals a broken record.

We get it. You're bitter towards Joyce and the rest of the IDPA BOD. Let it go. Let HQ lose sleep over the loss of membership.

If you want to give helpful tips or insightful views that are constructive in nature, have at it. But you're current track record doesn't exactly reflect that. Put the "Haterade" down and move on.

[BillR1]

GOF,

Do you ever have any constructive to add to any thread? You seem to spout a lot of hate for an organization that you no longer contribute to but can't seem to resist trolling IDPA threads. Reviewing previous posts from a variety of thread reveals a broken record.

We get it. You're bitter towards Joyce and the rest of the IDPA BOD. Let it go. Let HQ lose sleep over the loss of membership.

If you want to give helpful tips or insightful views that are constructive in nature, have at it. But you're current track record doesn't exactly reflect that. Put the "Haterade" down and move on.

Edited October 29, 2014 by BillR1

[GOF]

Actually, I am a current dues paying IDPA member and run squads as a CSO at one club I shoot at regularly (where I invariably have ALL the new shooters assigned to my squad because the MD knows I will handle them well and bring them back), and am welcomed as a SO at two others. I also volunteer to run Classifiers. I also help design COFs. During the over 9 years I have been a IDPA member & SO I was a significant contributor to getting one new club up and running. I work regularly with new SOs to help bring them up to speed. I pay my dues and I contribute beyond just sending a $40 check to Berryville every year.

You might want to check your facts before you start spouting off meaningless cr$p. (although I doubt if that will dissuade the true Kool Aid drinkers... in their minds IDPA can do no wrong, even if the 'wrong' is glaringly obvious. I'd bet that they'd vote for Obama - again - if he was on the ballot. Some people just don't learn)

The fact that I am sometimes critical of the route IDPA seems to currently be taking is because I do believe in the basic concept, but I just hate to see the stupid way it is currently being implemented.

THIS!

A23489 MA/SSP, EX/ SSR/CDP/ESP

[Chuck D]

So...am I to believe that there are NO matches, regardless of what "Tier" they are that are not run under or subject to "local rules and policies?"

...and am I also to believe that there exists NO matches regardless of "Tier" that allow non-members or members with lapse memberships to compete ?

[elguapo]

Actually, I am a current dues paying IDPA member and run squads as a CSO at one club I shoot at regularly (where I invariably have ALL the new shooters assigned to my squad because the MD knows I will handle them well and bring them back), and am welcomed as a SO at two others. I also volunteer to run Classifiers. I also help design COFs. During the over 9 years I have been a IDPA member & SO I was a significant contributor to getting one new club up and running. I work regularly with new SOs to help bring them up to speed. I pay my dues and I contribute beyond just sending a $40 check to Berryville every year.

You might want to check your facts before you start spouting off meaningless cr$p. (although I doubt if that will dissuade the true Kool Aid drinkers... in their minds IDPA can do no wrong, even if the 'wrong' is glaringly obvious. I'd bet that they'd vote for Obama - again - if he was on the ballot. Some people just don't learn)

The fact that I am sometimes critical of the route IDPA seems to currently be taking is because I do believe in the basic concept, but I just hate to see the stupid way it is currently being implemented.

THIS!

A23489 MA/SSP, EX/ SSR/CDP/ESP

BOOM! headshot

[GrumpyOne]

Guys, I don't have a problem with you discussing why GADPA severed it's ties with IDPA, or vice versa... But don't let this get personal or it will get shut down.

[Brooke]

So it looks to me like some folks believe they should be exempt from the the rules that apply to everybody else. Level of match is falsely advertised even though completing a few simple steps would have solved that. Entries are accepted that violate the rules applying to everyone else even though HQ tried to find a solution for that after the fact (probably incorrectly, but they seemed to prefer peace to correctness).

In simpler terms IDPA HQ bent over backwards to cover for either arrogance or incompetence and the little boys in Atlanta took it as an insult and took their bats and balls home.

Have I summarized this correctly?

The gentleman who lists all his contributions to IDPA has IMHO now evened the slate by endlessly complaining on the internet in an inappropriate fashion. People reading this forum can't resolve the issues you have and you know that. Only by working with HQ in a mature adult dialog can you even begin to make your case. Thanks for your contributions and shame on you for your hostility. You obviously do not understand how to achieve change. Most rational folks will run from the confrontational approach you are pursuing

[elguapo]

You obviously do not understand how to achieve change.

I know you're talking about GOF, but I will say this: there is more than one way to achieve change. It all depends on what you want as the result of the change.

[BillR1]

So it looks to me like some folks believe they should be exempt from the the rules that apply to everybody else. Level of match is falsely advertised even though completing a few simple steps would have solved that. Entries are accepted that violate the rules applying to everyone else even though HQ tried to find a solution for that after the fact (probably incorrectly, but they seemed to prefer peace to correctness).

In simpler terms IDPA HQ bent over backwards to cover for either arrogance or incompetence and the little boys in Atlanta took it as an insult and took their bats and balls home.

Have I summarized this correctly?

The gentleman who lists all his contributions to IDPA has IMHO now evened the slate by endlessly complaining on the internet in an inappropriate fashion. People reading this forum can't resolve the issues you have and you know that. Only by working with HQ in a mature adult dialog can you even begin to make your case. Thanks for your contributions and shame on you for your hostility. You obviously do not understand how to achieve change. Most rational folks will run from the confrontational approach you are pursuing

I feel badly for the legitimate shooters affected by this club. (a club that obviously thought they were above the rules!)

Do they get their match fee refunded, since they signed up for an "advertised" Tier 4 match and expected Nationals points accordingly?

Will the order of finish be corrected to eliminate those shooters who were not qualified for this match? (either through invalid classifications or lapsed membership) This could affect awards and match bumps.

[Chuck D]

So it looks to me like some folks believe they should be exempt from the the rules that apply to everybody else. Level of match is falsely advertised even though completing a few simple steps would have solved that. Entries are accepted that violate the rules applying to everyone else even though HQ tried to find a solution for that after the fact (probably incorrectly, but they seemed to prefer peace to correctness).

In simpler terms IDPA HQ bent over backwards to cover for either arrogance or incompetence and the little boys in Atlanta took it as an insult and took their bats and balls home.

Have I summarized this correctly?

The gentleman who lists all his contributions to IDPA has IMHO now evened the slate by endlessly complaining on the internet in an inappropriate fashion. People reading this forum can't resolve the issues you have and you know that. Only by working with HQ in a mature adult dialog can you even begin to make your case. Thanks for your contributions and shame on you for your hostility. You obviously do not understand how to achieve change. Most rational folks will run from the confrontational approach you are pursuing

I've competed in my share of local, State, and Regional matches that had illegal stages, violations of the rulebook (esecially the "airgunning rule) and allowed non-members, members whose membership had lapsed, and pending memberships to compete (with the sole,exception of Regional tournaments). There is even an IDPA sanctioned club in Central NY that hosts "outlaw" matches using IDPA targets and IDPA rules and OVERSEEN by IDPA S.O."s so do us all a favor and save the semantics.

You talk about acting rational and professional then you throw out the "little .boys in Atlanta" comment with tremendous ease negating any viable point you wish to make. Again...semantics.

If the club violated the rulebook...then they should have corrected the violations. If they chose to leave IDPA over it that's their option but to say IDPA rules are not violated by other clubs at the club match to championship level is a BIG stretch.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Chuck D

[rowdyb]

I agree that there seems to be a shift in focus towards new shooters and the idea of entertainment for them in currently run idpa and its stated goals. the people who are competitive or with more time in seem, to me, to be the ones who are mostly unhappy.

As a comparison, doesn't the Carolina Cup often have stages that are illegal per the book (i know this year did)? Doesn't it also fulfill every requirement for a tier 4 but only receives tier 3 rating? In effect them both giving each other the finger but choosing to continue on doing what they are doing?

If this is so, I wonder why another club didn't choose to do the same thing? The CC seems to be a well regarded, well attended and successful match. If the GA was felt to be the same, why couldn't they just agree to disagree and see what happens?

[Chuck D]

So it looks to me like some folks believe they should be exempt from the the rules that apply to everybody else. Level of match is falsely advertised even though completing a few simple steps would have solved that. Entries are accepted that violate the rules applying to everyone else even though HQ tried to find a solution for that after the fact (probably incorrectly, but they seemed to prefer peace to correctness).

In simpler terms IDPA HQ bent over backwards to cover for either arrogance or incompetence and the little boys in Atlanta took it as an insult and took their bats and balls home.

Have I summarized this correctly?

The gentleman who lists all his contributions to IDPA has IMHO now evened the slate by endlessly complaining on the internet in an inappropriate fashion. People reading this forum can't resolve the issues you have and you know that. Only by working with HQ in a mature adult dialog can you even begin to make your case. Thanks for your contributions and shame on you for your hostility. You obviously do not understand how to achieve change. Most rational folks will run from the confrontational approach you are pursuing

I feel badly for the legitimate shooters affected by this club. (a club that obviously thought they were above the rules!)

Do they get their match fee refunded, since they signed up for an "advertised" Tier 4 match and expected Nationals points accordingly?

Will the order of finish be corrected to eliminate those shooters who were not qualified for this match? (either through invalid classifications or lapsed membership) This could affect awards and match bumps.

....all valid points. I do wonder though if you'd advocate some of the same solutions when a competitor is assessed penalties when an S.O. makes a "subjective" call that adversely effects their score ?