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Is a "Range Member Only" USPSA match legal?


CHA-LEE

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I said I don't care about the out of towners. I NEVER said I didn't care about the sport. Doesn't caring about the sport include caring about the membership and their rights? I am a Life member and Master in two divisions. Being a life member is awesome! Being a master means less than nothing on this topic. Whenever somebody throws classification into a sentence without being asked results in me not hearing much else they have to say.

If you don't care about the out of towners, i.e. other members, why should I care about you or your club? See how that works? Your match shutting down is the last thing any member of USPSA wants to see happen regardless of how you feel about them. I just wish clubs followed all applicable rules so the sport could be more unified. And, I'm sorry, but charging an outlandish fee after 3 matches does not equal "open to all uspsa members" in my, or any other rational persons book. I'm sorry you guys don't have the selection of venues to shoot on a monthly basis so you could ditch your current situation. If you are ever near Cincinnati bring your gear, because there is a match somewhere locally every weekend that is truly open to any USPSA member.

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I said I don't care about the out of towners. I NEVER said I didn't care about the sport. Doesn't caring about the sport include caring about the membership and their rights? I am a Life member and Master in two divisions. Being a life member is awesome! Being a master means less than nothing on this topic. Whenever somebody throws classification into a sentence without being asked results in me not hearing much else they have to say.

If you don't care about the out of towners, i.e. other members, why should I care about you or your club? See how that works? Your match shutting down is the last thing any member of USPSA wants to see happen regardless of how you feel about them. I just wish clubs followed all applicable rules so the sport could be more unified. And, I'm sorry, but charging an outlandish fee after 3 matches does not equal "open to all uspsa members" in my, or any other rational persons book. I'm sorry you guys don't have the selection of venues to shoot on a monthly basis so you could ditch your current situation. If you are ever near Cincinnati bring your gear, because there is a match somewhere locally every weekend that is truly open to any USPSA member.

We will see what the out come will be.....

Am I invited?

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Sorry to see, however, that you don't apparently care about the sport, though---just your local shooters.

So you are saying he is doing this on purpose to screw with you and others and it is out of the blackness of his heart that he is not canceling the match to spite his local club, and the 50 or so shooters who would then not have a USPSA match at all?

That makes about as much sense as cutting off ones nose to spite ... oh wait. Never mind.

Nope, didn't say that at all. I suggest you read what I wrote. (Among other things, nowhere did I mention canceling anything.)

He clearly said he didn't care about any out-of-towners. Just his local shooters.

Obviously from that, he doesn't care about the sport, because the sport includes everyone who can shoot it. (That's rather the point of the affiliation wording, yes?) But he only cares about local shooters.

How you turned that into what you wrote above, I have no idea, since it bore no resemblance to what I said.

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Don't put words in my mouth. I said I don't care about the out of towners. I NEVER said I didn't care about the sport. I am a Life member and Master in two divisions. I definitely care about the sport......but think about this, what does it matter if I don't have a match to shoot at? If I don't have a match to shoot, who cares what the rules are. If there isn't a match to shoot, isn't the whole issue a moot point? Damn right it is.

You don't care about out-of-towners.

You do care about local shooters. And you are a life member and Master in two divisions---so you care about YOU being able to shoot the sport.

This is rather separate from caring about the sport.

Since you apparently ignored the rest of my post, I'll leave it at that.

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The I can't read award goes to Thomas H:

"Absolutely. Which is separate from signing an agreement that says "The club agrees that all USPSA matches shall be open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions." which apparently someone signed but he is ignoring."

They are OPEN to ANY person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions! And which part don't you understand?????

I can come and shoot four matches at your club with no issues, without any further requirements? That isn't what you said earlier in this thread.

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To all the critics. The problem has been identified. Now offer a real solution! Remember that the USPSA club does not have the power to change it and the BOD doesn't care if they lose USPSA. Let's hear the proposals.

I believe that someone has already clearly stated the procedure to obtain a local exemption for range rules.

People have also said keep plugging away, building your club, and keep working on getting people on the local BoD.

Was there something else you'd prefer to see?

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I said I don't care about the out of towners. I NEVER said I didn't care about the sport. Doesn't caring about the sport include caring about the membership and their rights? I am a Life member and Master in two divisions. Being a life member is awesome! Being a master means less than nothing on this topic. Whenever somebody throws classification into a sentence without being asked results in me not hearing much else they have to say.

If you don't care about the out of towners, i.e. other members, why should I care about you or your club? See how that works? Your match shutting down is the last thing any member of USPSA wants to see happen regardless of how you feel about them. I just wish clubs followed all applicable rules so the sport could be more unified. And, I'm sorry, but charging an outlandish fee after 3 matches does not equal "open to all uspsa members" in my, or any other rational persons book. I'm sorry you guys don't have the selection of venues to shoot on a monthly basis so you could ditch your current situation. If you are ever near Cincinnati bring your gear, because there is a match somewhere locally every weekend that is truly open to any USPSA member.

So if 250 USPSA members greet you at sign-up at your next match, you won't be turning anyone away? You've got parking to accommodate that many? :devil::devil:

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The I can't read award goes to Thomas H:

"Absolutely. Which is separate from signing an agreement that says "The club agrees that all USPSA matches shall be open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions." which apparently someone signed but he is ignoring."

They are OPEN to ANY person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions! And which part don't you understand?????

I can come and shoot four matches at your club with no issues, without any further requirements? That isn't what you said earlier in this thread.

Never said 4 it is 3!
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Not going to play your game of Clintonian English BK. If you require people to join your club to shoot a USPSA match, you are not following the rules and agreements that were agreed to when the club was started. You don't follow the rules, you are not supposed to advertise as a USPSA club. You can abide by the rules, or not, that is a choice you and your club must make. If you don't like the rule and want to maintain the integrity that comes with doing it the right way, ask for an exemption from Strader or get your AD to make a motion to change the rule.

Our club is a members only club.Non-members can visit the club 3 times after that they must join the club. I guess I will bring this up at our next club meeting see what happens. In the end the match fee for a non-member will end up paying $250.00 to shoot the USPSA match and will get a free membership to the club. All within the rules and agreements of USPSA. "The right way". That way we don't have to get an exemption or get the rule changed.

Well here it is Thomas! Need to get your facts right before you go mouthing off about what I said or didn't say! Edited by bkeeler
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I said I don't care about the out of towners. I NEVER said I didn't care about the sport. Doesn't caring about the sport include caring about the membership and their rights? I am a Life member and Master in two divisions. Being a life member is awesome! Being a master means less than nothing on this topic. Whenever somebody throws classification into a sentence without being asked results in me not hearing much else they have to say.

If you don't care about the out of towners, i.e. other members, why should I care about you or your club? See how that works? Your match shutting down is the last thing any member of USPSA wants to see happen regardless of how you feel about them. I just wish clubs followed all applicable rules so the sport could be more unified. And, I'm sorry, but charging an outlandish fee after 3 matches does not equal "open to all uspsa members" in my, or any other rational persons book. I'm sorry you guys don't have the selection of venues to shoot on a monthly basis so you could ditch your current situation. If you are ever near Cincinnati bring your gear, because there is a match somewhere locally every weekend that is truly open to any USPSA member.

So if 250 USPSA members greet you at sign-up at your next match, you won't be turning anyone away? You've got parking to accommodate that many? :devil::devil:

It would be a long match for sure and there is more than enough room to park. There is, just like any other club, a long winding country road leading into the club to park along. :cheers:

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Guys! Nobody wants any match anywhere to go away! Not even me! That is never a step in the right direction. I just object to the way this particular match is done but I see the confines that you work under. FYI you don't have a monopoly on being a uspsa group in a club that is not keen on you being there. It's just that I have never seen extortion used as a tactic by a host club.

Now I suggest you jump over to the uspsa forums and get in the first shots because somebody posted a link to this thread over there. Of course, only about 10 people will ever read it so it's probably no big deal! :roflol:

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Guys! Nobody wants any match anywhere to go away! Not even me! That is never a step in the right direction. I just object to the way this particular match is done but I see the confines that you work under. FYI you don't have a monopoly on being a uspsa group in a club that is not keen on you being there. It's just that I have never seen extortion used as a tactic by a host club.

Now I suggest you jump over to the uspsa forums and get in the first shots because somebody posted a link to this thread over there. Of course, only about 10 people will ever read it so it's probably no big deal! :roflol:

We are just playing by the rules as they are written. (Gaming maybe??) ? Edited by bkeeler
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Lets do some math on this "outlandish" pricing, this "raping" of our USPSA community.

Our 2014 renewal pricing with work time (Help set-up 4 match's a year or various other projects)

$150 per year

9 USPSA Match's @$5 = $45

20 Steel Challenge Match's @$1 =$20

Total $215

There is a one time initiation fee of $100 the first year you join.

Worst case first year shooter $315 for the first year. Most are at $215.

Most other USPSA friendly clubs not outlandish or not raping the non-members

But we have to charge $5 or maybe $10 more for you to shoot per match.

9 USPSA Match's @$20 = $180

20 Steel Challenge @$10 = $200

Total $380

A few real friendly clubs like Markco's club that charges everyone the same

9 USPSA Match's@10 = $90

20 Steel Challenge @$5 = $190

Total $280

Obviously the numbers will change if you don't shoot steel and if you only shoot 3 or 4 match's a year total.

And I don't know if Markco's club actually shoots steel or what the price would be. Update the prices on your own

and see what happens. I know he said he charges $10 to everyone for USPSA.

But our club shoots USPSA every month and 2 steel match's every month. A few are cancelled for really bad weather.

There is also the option to shoot 12 IDPA match's if you like that for a super cheap price but I won't figure that in.

They guys that shoot allot find it a bargain and not outlandish. Even shooting half the match's doesn't change a bunch.

Everyone has to figure what works for them.

I can see who is outlandish

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OK I'll bite. We shoot USPSA March-October and charge $15 to shoot 5 great stages. I think that's $120 per year to shoot at my match. Matches are open to ALL, not just uspsa members.

Steel matches are $3 and they shoot all year I think. But I am only concerned with uspsa since that is what we are talking about in the thread.

If you join our club for the purpose of wanting to practice on your own It's 200 initiation plus 95 the first year then 95 per year thereafter. But if you have a place to practice there really is no need to join because ANY organized match at our club is open to the public.

So simple math is $120 to shoot my matches all year. If we forced them to join the club our match would die because it currently takes a year and a half just to get into orientation. But if it managed to survive it would cost $415 the first year then $215 per year after that vs. $120 to come and shoot our matches. This way they can spend another $120 per year to shoot at the club 30 minutes up the road and another $120 at the club 30 minutes up the OTHER road, etc.....

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The I can't read award goes to Thomas H:

"Absolutely. Which is separate from signing an agreement that says "The club agrees that all USPSA matches shall be open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions." which apparently someone signed but he is ignoring."

They are OPEN to ANY person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions! And which part don't you understand?????

I can come and shoot four matches at your club with no issues, without any further requirements? That isn't what you said earlier in this thread.

Never said 4 it is 3!

That was my point. I CAN'T come shoot four matches at your club with no issues and without any further requirements. Thank you for making my point for me.

Well here it is Thomas! Need to get your facts right before you go mouthing off about what I said or didn't say!

So indeed, you didn't say I could come shoot four matches. Amazing how that works, that I said exactly what I meant, and what I said was correct based on what YOU said.

I can't simply come and shoot matches at your club, so it isn't simply open to current and potential USPSA members as the affiliation agreement requires.

Thanks for making that clear! Well done!

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I know I have a question still pending for you, but I have a another, Thomas. Do we have a "right" or entitlement to shoot a USPSA match? Followup question, why should anyone else care what you can or can not do for fun?

Edited by Vlad
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OK I'll bite. We shoot USPSA March-October and charge $15 to shoot 5 great stages. I think that's $120 per year to shoot at my match. Matches are open to ALL, not just uspsa members.

Steel matches are $3 and they shoot all year I think. But I am only concerned with uspsa since that is what we are talking about in the thread.

If you join our club for the purpose of wanting to practice on your own It's 200 initiation plus 95 the first year then 95 per year thereafter. But if you have a place to practice there really is no need to join because ANY organized match at our club is open to the public.

So simple math is $120 to shoot my matches all year. If we forced them to join the club our match would die because it currently takes a year and a half just to get into orientation. But if it managed to survive it would cost $415 the first year then $215 per year after that vs. $120 to come and shoot our matches. This way they can spend another $120 per year to shoot at the club 30 minutes up the road and another $120 at the club 30 minutes up the OTHER road, etc.....

We need to keep it somewhat consistent for now, we can break out Uspsa only next. Assume you will get 9 Uspsa match's in.

Also need to know if you charge more to non members. Is $15 for everyone sarge?

Right now you are at

9 Uspsa @$15 = $135

20 steel @$3. = $60

Total $195 for sarge

Please keep some numbers coming in so we can get a good feel for normal a baseline can we say.

Edited by racegun9
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The I can't read award goes to Thomas H:

"Absolutely. Which is separate from signing an agreement that says "The club agrees that all USPSA matches shall be open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions." which apparently someone signed but he is ignoring."

They are OPEN to ANY person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions! And which part don't you understand?????

I can come and shoot four matches at your club with no issues, without any further requirements? That isn't what you said earlier in this thread.

Never said 4 it is 3!

That was my point. I CAN'T come shoot four matches at your club with no issues and without any further requirements. Thank you for making my point for me.

Well here it is Thomas! Need to get your facts right before you go mouthing off about what I said or didn't say!

So indeed, you didn't say I could come shoot four matches. Amazing how that works, that I said exactly what I meant, and what I said was correct based on what YOU said.

I can't simply come and shoot matches at your club, so it isn't simply open to current and potential USPSA members as the affiliation agreement requires.

Thanks for making that clear! Well done!

Yeah you did it! But you still can't figure out what it says in the Afiliation agreement! Funny!
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The I can't read award goes to Thomas H:

"Absolutely. Which is separate from signing an agreement that says "The club agrees that all USPSA matches shall be open to any person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions." which apparently someone signed but he is ignoring."

They are OPEN to ANY person eligible for USPSA membership or are members of other IPSC regions! And which part don't you understand?????

I can come and shoot four matches at your club with no issues, without any further requirements? That isn't what you said earlier in this thread.

Never said 4 it is 3!

That was my point. I CAN'T come shoot four matches at your club with no issues and without any further requirements. Thank you for making my point for me.

Well here it is Thomas! Need to get your facts right before you go mouthing off about what I said or didn't say!

So indeed, you didn't say I could come shoot four matches. Amazing how that works, that I said exactly what I meant, and what I said was correct based on what YOU said.

I can't simply come and shoot matches at your club, so it isn't simply open to current and potential USPSA members as the affiliation agreement requires.

Thanks for making that clear! Well done!

And why can't you come and shoot a match at my club? Who is stopping you?
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OK I'll bite. We shoot USPSA March-October and charge $15 to shoot 5 great stages. I think that's $120 per year to shoot at my match. Matches are open to ALL, not just uspsa members.

Steel matches are $3 and they shoot all year I think. But I am only concerned with uspsa since that is what we are talking about in the thread.

If you join our club for the purpose of wanting to practice on your own It's 200 initiation plus 95 the first year then 95 per year thereafter. But if you have a place to practice there really is no need to join because ANY organized match at our club is open to the public.

So simple math is $120 to shoot my matches all year. If we forced them to join the club our match would die because it currently takes a year and a half just to get into orientation. But if it managed to survive it would cost $415 the first year then $215 per year after that vs. $120 to come and shoot our matches. This way they can spend another $120 per year to shoot at the club 30 minutes up the road and another $120 at the club 30 minutes up the OTHER road, etc.....

We need to keep it somewhat consistent for now, we can break out Uspsa only next. Assume you will get 9 Uspsa match's in.

Also need to know if you charge more to non members. Is $15 for everyone sarge?

Right now you are at

9 Uspsa @$15 = $135

20 steel @$3. = $60

Total $195 for sarge

Please keep some numbers coming in so we can get a good feel for normal a baseline can we say.

We only shoot 8 matches per year. Yes $15 for all. Steel is tough because in the summer months we shoot one a month on Saturday, one every wednesday night and maybe one every Wednesday morning for the retirees.

Around here all matches are between 15 and 20 bucks.

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