Limited equipment rules

[Moltke]

So pistols as is, shotgun with horner mag limits, and 1x optic rifles with FNH mag limits.

[Benelli Chick]

So pistols as is, shotgun with horner mag limits, and 1x optic rifles with FNH mag limits.

I thought you had to plug your shotgun at Blueridge. It can only hold 8 in tube. If you load more after start, you're bumped to Open.

[BigLucky]

I had proposed this basic thing for the match I am working on in April.....

A very wise friend told me one thing that made me stop... "Limiting magazine capacity is something that liberals do"..... so load those puppies up lets have a shoot out..

[J.Schmitt]

So pistols as is, shotgun with horner mag limits, and 1x optic rifles with FNH mag limits.

I thought you had to plug your shotgun at Blueridge. It can only hold 8 in tube. If you load more after start, you're bumped to Open.

You do have to have it plugged. If it can hold more than 8 at any time you are breaking the rules.

[bmiller]

I can't see the appeal of downloading your handgun. If you live in a ban state, fine. This game is expensive no matter what equipment restrictions are in play, I do not see how another $100 for mag extensions is going to make a differance. I have shot a few IDPA style 3-gun matches, they are ok. I would much rather shoot the wide open style matches where I am not counting to 10 or worrying about cover! I guess the other point is this is a game. I know people in the real world don't use shotguns that could be used for pole vaulting, but they don't download their mags to 10 either.

The appeal is that some people consider reloading a gun to be a useful skill (much like shooting non-magnified optics) so being tested on that on the clock is a good thing. Keeping with a freestyle free-for-all sport, magazine capacity limits would be a way to make people in one division who want to do reloads have to do it, while higher capacity folks in another division don't have to.

Do you shoot heavy irons? To me, your ideal division almost already exists. You just have to ditch the poodle shooter. (A little Cooperism for the younger crowd).

[Sterling White]

NEW USPSA Multigun rules

Started by bigbrowndog, Aug 23 2010 10:11 AM

Posted 29 August 2010 - 08:29 AM

KurtM The IPSC standard division rule of 9 at the start, after the beep, it doesn't matter, so you can have a long tube if you wish you only get to start with 9 in the gun (8 rounds for a empty chamber start). I hear ya about remembering rules thats why I have to read them each time

It took me a while but I found when the pendulum last swung.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Sterling White

[Moltke]

Thanks but I don't shoot heavy irons and have no interest in it.

Looking back and re-reading this thread, I don't even have interest in shooting downloaded guns anymore. Its just a suggestion to make it "different" but doesn't actually make it "better" so if its just being different for different's sake then screw it. I think Limited is fine the way it is with high capacity high performance semi auto firearms with the only difference being "no magnified optics" on the rifle. BigLucky is right, let's have a shoot out.

[Stlhead]

I feel like I am speaking Klingon. Is my idea so universally bad that it is impossible to understand or have a really done such a poor job of communicating it?

I am not advocating downloading anything. 8 + 1 is the currently allowed maximum rounds to start with, I am saying that that should be the maximum allowed after the beep as well. A 30 round magazine is the current standard size for an AR. I am not advocating ANY change for the pistol. Other people keep bringing up the 15 or 10 round pistol stuff.

Not different for difference sake, different to improve the game. Increase the challenge. No additional shotgun reloading will be required to complete any corse of fire with these rule changes, and very few additional rifle reloads will be required unless the shooter sucks balls. The biggest change to the rifle would be the elimination of the ability to monopod off the longer magazine, not the loss of the extra 10 rounds. If the stage requires 40 rounds from a single position it is a pile anyway.

[RiggerJJ]

No Sean, you ARE speaking English...and I hear ya...

jj

[TyinTX]

Nope not speaking Klingon. I monopod off 30s and not the 40s. I just like the choice. And the shotgun 8+1 start works for me so why make me plug my 1 extra shell. I enjoy the challenge of limited being the rifle sight and being able to very easily compare my times to the Tac Scope guys. I just play by the rules, don't make them like some of the people who have commented in here.

[HRider]

I either shoot Limited or He Man/Heavy Metal irons when I shoot. I say leave limited as it is. If you want 8+1 all of the time, it wouldn't bother me though. As far as 30 rd mags in the rifle, I have shot some multigun stages and several rifle match stages that were larger than 30 rds (by design, before I started missing), but there was always a place to make a reload, so it really doesn't matter. I would only need to know that everyone in the class/division played by the same rules and that the rules were published before the match so I could bring the gear that complied.

Hurley

[Sterling White]

Have you heard the new Klingon motto? Don't short round me bro

Sorry Sean, couldn't resist

[bikerburgess]

My issue with limited as it is, is that it is the exact same as TO except for the 10-20ish long range shots in the match where having magnification will make a difference. That's why I think it should be a pump division like HM. I think it would be a good place to start 3 gun as most already have the gear and it would offer enough difference from TO that you could feel better about how bad Horner beat you because he used "better" gear in that other division

[Stlhead]

My issue with limited as it is, is that it is the exact same as TO except for the 10-20ish long range shots in the match where having magnification will make a difference. That's why I think it should be a pump division like HM. I think it would be a good place to start 3 gun as most already have the gear and it would offer enough difference from TO that you could feel better about how bad Horner beat you because he used "better" gear in that other division

Did you read this thread before you posted? The whole point of this thread is to discuss the idea of differentiating limited from scope tac MORE.

Scope tac gear is not "Better" than limited gear, it is different. I am very comfortable with being beaten by Mr. Horner, because he is better than me. It is insulting to infer that those shooting limited are just looking for a place to shoot so they can avoid feeling bad about their performance. I wonder if possibly you are projecting your own feelings?

Limited is the last place that to start as a beginner. The beginners should all start in scope tac where they can use the optic as a crutch until they are competent enough to have some success without it and enter the more demanding limited division. Limited is harder than scope tac, and I want it to get harder still. I welcome everyone who wants to embrace the challenges and benefits of shooting 1x, but throwing new shooters into limited and thinking of it as scope tac light is absurd.

[bikerburgess]

My issue with limited as it is, is that it is the exact same as TO except for the 10-20ish long range shots in the match where having magnification will make a difference. That's why I think it should be a pump division like HM. I think it would be a good place to start 3 gun as most already have the gear and it would offer enough difference from TO that you could feel better about how bad Horner beat you because he used "better" gear in that other division

Did you read this thread before you posted? The whole point of this thread is to discuss the idea of differentiating limited from scope tac MORE.

Scope tac gear is not "Better" than limited gear, it is different. I am very comfortable with being beaten by Mr. Horner, because he is better than me. It is insulting to infer that those shooting limited are just looking for a place to shoot so they can avoid feeling bad about their performance. I wonder if possibly you are projecting your own feelings?

Limited is the last place that to start as a beginner. The beginners should all start in scope tac where they can use the optic as a crutch until they are competent enough to have some success without it and enter the more demanding limited division. Limited is harder than scope tac, and I want it to get harder still. I welcome everyone who wants to embrace the challenges and benefits of shooting 1x, but throwing new shooters into limited and thinking of it as scope tac light is absurd.

So your saying that a new shooter that wants to come try 3gun should go buy a bunch of new gear before they try the sport because most non 3gunners probably dont have a 1to4,6or8 scope but they are likely to have a 1x red dot ot iron sighted AR. They are also far more likely to have a 870 or a 500 pump shot gun than a M2. Thus my proposal to make limited a pump division, it would bothbe a plave where the gear new shooters probably allready have fits better and makes it more different from TO than the 10 to 20 shots in a match where having magification actually helps. When I shoot limited I still compare my stage performances to my friends shooting TO and I know the lack of a scope (I shoot with actual iron sights) has almost nothing to do with how I placed compared to them. An unfortunately the whole point behind divisions is do people can separate their results by perceived equipment advantages, but at most big matches TO wins overall over open do the equipment doesn't make a much difference as we want to believe.

[Stlhead]

No I am not saying a new shooter should buy a bunch of new stuff. I don't care what they have or don't have. I am saying that having a new to 3 gun shooter trying to hit skinnies at 100 yards with his aim point is a recipe for disaster. At least with a cheap scope he might be able to get an idea where his shots are going. I have seen a lot of ammo wasted on targets that are not getting hit by newer shooters, what they need is a chance to see if they like the sport, not an ass whipping by targets that they can't hit. Watching a new shooter struggle with an 18" pump gun without chokes is even worse, the steel just mocks them by not falling so they SLOWLY reload and it still does not go down, then they short stroke. Do new shooters a favor and lend them a decent shotgun, and a rifle with a low power variable or even an acog and a set of side irons. They may want to try a different division later, but unless they are grounded in 3gun fundamentals, 1x is not the best sport for a new shooter, a convincing case could be made for open with borrowed gear before limited or HM.

If a majority of those that shoot limited where to decide that a pump was the way to go I would be more than happy to go pump in limited. Personally I think it would be a bad idea and not in keeping with the spirit of limited. The idea behind limited was to separate it from open by removing optics, compensators, bipods, and limiting capacity, not to dictate action types. But again I like to pump, and would go with the flow. Shoot limited for a few years and then advocate the change if you feel that strongly about it.

The best shooters who turn in the best performances win matches, I would need someone to prove that tac ops shooters are high overall at most majors, feel free to prove me wrong.

[atomicferret]

I think that most, if not all competitors in 3 gun like to shoot. Therefore, it almost doesn't matter what new rule is implemented, competitors will comply. That is not to say there won't be some belly aching. If a match (any match) instigated a strict "no more than 10 in the shotgun, ever", we would comply and compete.

I like the idea of differentiating the divisions. Mostly to give a different experience. New shooters will look at where they fit best and then move up from there.

[Sterling White]

Historically, the difference between TO & Limited was the sighting system, ie., optics v. irons. It wasn't about anything more because SG capacity in both TO and Limted were restricted. The purity of limited changed when 1x optics were allowed in because they didn't have a home. Realize that the limited division was about to go extinct and there was an outcry (at that time) from 1x users that they couldn't compete with their 1x's against magnified scopes so it seemed like an easy fit. And to be honest there have been show downs between 1x and irons. A short time later another rule change come to bear which allowed unlimited SG capacities in the SG's after the buzzer - new USPSA 3G rules were written and other MD's adopted the idea about the same time. (PAIR-OF-DIME shift ) Personally, I think it would be a mistake to turn back the clock and here are the reasons why. Many small and some large companies are making products which benefit from these rule changes, ie., scopes, comps, sights, extension tubes, mag extensions, shell caddies, belts, holsters, etc.. Do these products make the sport better? I would say yes because its the creative thought processes from these companies that improve the systems we use in the sport. Do these products have benefit to markets outside of 3G - possibly! Is the sport any better? I would say yes - Limited is not extinct and alive while TO has exploded.

my dos centavos

[dcloudy777]

Historically, the difference between TO & Limited was the sighting system, ie., optics v. irons. It wasn't about anything more because SG capacity in both TO and Limted were restricted. The purity of limited changed when 1x optics were allowed in because they didn't have a home. Realize that the limited division was about to go extinct and there was an outcry (at that time) from 1x users that they couldn't compete with their 1x's against magnified scopes so it seemed like an easy fit. And to be honest there have been show downs between 1x and irons. A short time later another rule change come to bear which allowed unlimited SG capacities in the SG's after the buzzer - new USPSA 3G rules were written and other MD's adopted the idea about the same time. (PAIR-OF-DIME shift ) Personally, I think it would be a mistake to turn back the clock and here are the reasons why. Many small and some large companies are making products which benefit from these rule changes, ie., scopes, comps, sights, extension tubes, mag extensions, shell caddies, belts, holsters, etc.. Do these products make the sport better? I would say yes because its the creative thought processes from these companies that improve the systems we use in the sport. Do these products have benefit to markets outside of 3G - possibly! Is the sport any better? I would say yes - Limited is not extinct and alive while TO has exploded.

my dos centavos

I still like the idea of splitting the TO leviathan. Your idea back in my thread (basically making "Open Light") is awesome.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I had proposed this basic thing for the match I am working on in April.....

A very wise friend told me one thing that made me stop... "Limiting magazine capacity is something that liberals do"..... so load those puppies up lets have a shoot out..

DING DING DING.....we have a WINNER!

Quit screwing with what barely works as-is...you're gonna break it! The division is under represented behind Tacops and sometimes Open. Heavy Divisions are dying fast, in part to much higher ammo cost, despite concessions for hits on paper.

I shoot limited from time to time and enjoy shooting it. Downloading mags or mag tubes seems really.....California/Colorado/New Jersey/New York/Mother Russia. Longer shotgun tubes really only come into play with people who can load their shotgun tubes really fast and can load 2-4 shells more than you can while moving into that shooting position. Loading 4 at the buzzer can be an advantage on a rare occasion, but I've watched a lot of people get burned trying to do it. With Nordic's coupler and RCI XRail's 2rd extension for their mono-tube, there isn't a barrier to entry unless you are only weakhand loading.

Just to be facetious.....here are the new limited division rules:

Production pistols only, .44 caliber or larger with 2000+PF, no custom triggers/sights/magwells/slide cuts/recoil springs, must fit in an IDPA box, 10rd mag limits, all mags must come from cargo pockets. .40 is allowed in Super-Limited, but must make 180PF.

Shotgun must have factory length mag tube with 8rd max, no welded/extended lifters, no opened loading ports, cylinder bore 18.5" barrels only, bead sights, required pistol grips with no buttstock, a top folding buttstock is allowed in Super-Limited. Must be loaded from a belt/bandoleer/armband, and oriented in a fashion where each shells has it's own holder that does not allow dual loading or quad loading (coz we knows it's da debil). Weakhand loading of more than 2 shells will be permitted in Super-Limited only.

Rifle with iron sights only, bolt or lever action, max of 5 rounds of .45-70 minimum, ban-era non-threaded barrels only......muzzle brakes are cheating! No adjustable anything, no lightweight components. Semi-Auto .30 cal with 10rd mag limit and 1x optic allowed in Super-Limited.

All dump barrels for Limited and Super-Limited will be cowboy action carts with muzzle up orientation. Competitors will be required to wear WWII era camo and boots.

Now that the thread has been taken to full "herp" with partial "derp"......leave the division alone, there's barely enough representation at most major matches to put a second gun on the Limited prize table at some major matches for the guy who takes 2nd place behind Casanova at 65% of his scores.

[bmiller]

I had proposed this basic thing for the match I am working on in April.....

A very wise friend told me one thing that made me stop... "Limiting magazine capacity is something that liberals do"..... so load those puppies up lets have a shoot out..

DING DING DING.....we have a WINNER!

Quit screwing with what barely works as-is...you're gonna break it! The division is under represented behind Tacops and sometimes Open. Heavy Divisions are dying fast, in part to much higher ammo cost, despite concessions for hits on paper.

I shoot limited from time to time and enjoy shooting it. Downloading mags or mag tubes seems really.....California/Colorado/New Jersey/New York/Mother Russia. Longer shotgun tubes really only come into play with people who can load their shotgun tubes really fast and can load 2-4 shells more than you can while moving into that shooting position. Loading 4 at the buzzer can be an advantage on a rare occasion, but I've watched a lot of people get burned trying to do it. With Nordic's coupler and RCI XRail's 2rd extension for their mono-tube, there isn't a barrier to entry unless you are only weakhand loading.

Just to be facetious.....here are the new limited division rules:

Production pistols only, .44 caliber or larger with 2000+PF, no custom triggers/sights/magwells/slide cuts/recoil springs, must fit in an IDPA box, 10rd mag limits, all mags must come from cargo pockets. .40 is allowed in Super-Limited, but must make 180PF.

Shotgun must have factory length mag tube with 8rd max, no welded/extended lifters, no opened loading ports, cylinder bore 18.5" barrels only, bead sights, required pistol grips with no buttstock, a top folding buttstock is allowed in Super-Limited. Must be loaded from a belt/bandoleer/armband, and oriented in a fashion where each shells has it's own holder that does not allow dual loading or quad loading (coz we knows it's da debil). Weakhand loading of more than 2 shells will be permitted in Super-Limited only.

Rifle with iron sights only, bolt or lever action, max of 5 rounds of .45-70 minimum, ban-era non-threaded barrels only......muzzle brakes are cheating! No adjustable anything, no lightweight components. Semi-Auto .30 cal with 10rd mag limit and 1x optic allowed in Super-Limited.

All dump barrels for Limited and Super-Limited will be cowboy action carts with muzzle up orientation. Competitors will be required to wear WWII era camo and boots.

Now that the thread has been taken to full "herp" with partial "derp"......leave the division alone, there's barely enough representation at most major matches to put a second gun on the Limited prize table at some major matches for the guy who takes 2nd place behind Casanova at 65% of his scores.

Yes, someone should tell him to quit hiding out in limited! He needs to go shoot tac ops with the real shooters:). Or make him wear mittens and go barefoot to make it fair. Edited October 17, 2014 by bmiller

[EaZeNuTZ33]

why.....he beats them with his prismatic as is.

[bmiller]

My attempt at humor. Not successful .

[dauntedfuture]

Lots of interesting commentary here. I would like to see more commonality across the 3 gun events as opposed to more diversity. What ever it is, keep it as much the same as possible. I loath the clubs that impose strange rules because "local buba don't got a fancy semi auto SG etc." One match I went to, a SG only club match, you could only load 5 rounds in the SG to "make things more fair." I think your doing these shooters a disservice in the same way as if you don't use or enforce proper USPSA riles at a match, you set the shooter up for failure at his first "real" match. Equipment helps but its the Indian that matters more. I have observed lots of shooters new and more-experienced fail or struggle because their equipment does not work as opposed to the advantage that loading another shell in the gun after the buzzer or 10 extra rounds of rifle in a magazine provides. my .02

[MarkCO]

TO has not "exploded", just grown a little. Ammo costs and availability have pushed some in Heavy to go back to Limited or TO in 2013 and 2014. Also, arguably, Casanova's presence in Limited has driven a few out of the division and prize tables a few more. Running the Novekse match, I get 15-20 people who ask me if James is shooting Limited and what will the Limited prize table look like from 2nd through 10th. In most cases, they go to Tactical. James was HOA this year, shooting Limited, BTW.

Also, USPSA changed their rule regarding loading after the buzzer and tube capacity of shotguns in an attempt to be in line with the other major matches. I did not like it, but I agreed with the guys on the rules committee that uniformity of division rules was a good thing.